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My Gui has got to go

5 years 7 months ago #1 by NY Cavalry

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  • I hate it, hate it, hate it.

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    5 years 7 months ago #2 by voltigeur

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  • Replied by voltigeur on topic My Gui has got to go
    Your arguments are well presented, I'm sure nsd will be considering your request in earnest. :cheer:

    Scourge of War multiplayer group
    steamcommunity.com/groups/sowwaterloo
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    5 years 7 months ago #3 by Skyhigh

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  • Replied by Skyhigh on topic My Gui has got to go
    This is a good time to ask: what is this MyGui thing exactly?

    I haven't been involved in the earlier games of NSD and I have seen a lot of anti-love on this forum for MyGui.
    What is it, why is it good and/or bad?

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    5 years 7 months ago #4 by sifis172

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  • Replied by sifis172 on topic My Gui has got to go
    GUI-general user interface. it's the way all the buttons, commands, formations etc.
    are placed for the user to use. i don't know why it's said to be bad tho.

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    5 years 7 months ago #5 by con20or

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  • Replied by con20or on topic Re: My Gui has got to go

    This is a good time to ask: what is this MyGui thing exactly?

    I haven't been involved in the earlier games of NSD and I have seen a lot of anti-love on this forum for MyGui.
    What is it, why is it good and/or bad?


    We use MyGUI to design the menus, in-game interface, etc. It is a powerful tool, but took us quite alot of time to learn so you are seeing the feedback from modders who miss the old system. I freely admit that the layout editor is a bit rough around the edges and can be quite frustrating at times. We found it a steep learning curve about this time last year when we were in the dev phase but we built a whole game with it.

    Unfortunately for the OP, MyGUI cannot 'go'. I never like saying 'no, no chance', but in this case it is almost certainly true. The game is built around it and I cannot see a way for you to ever mod Waterloo without using the current SDK, sorry.
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    5 years 7 months ago #6 by Saddletank

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  • Replied by Saddletank on topic Re: My Gui has got to go

    you are seeing the feedback from modders who miss the old system.


    No, this isn't what most complaints are about.

    The problems people raise on the forums about MyGUI are that it:

    1) Makes modding harder than Gettysburg. Even simple tasks like writing a new OOB are harder!

    2) In some areas limits what you can mod and how you can mod it (e.g. toolbars) over what was possible in GB.

    3) Makes some of the gameplay formats downright frustrating, especially couriers in Multi-Player. HITS below 10yds height is impossible whereas it was possible at 2yds (aka first person) in Gettysburg.

    4) Several weird, counter-intuitive and frustrating game functions regarding menu options when couriers are in use. For example if you bring up the main options screen (the one where you exit or save your game) and an AI courier arrives, his message panel opens and CLOSES THE MAIN MENU SCREEN. This is just bad interface design.

    My view is that if MyGUI isn't replaced by another GUI interface tool that is more user friendly and flexible the modding capability of WL will be quite seriously limited, as will it's life.

    The interface in Gettysburg was simply better in every respect except possibly the slickness of how it looked and even then MyGUI isn't that much of an improvement.

    If WL is going to be developed into a long-running franchise like Gettysburg was, with other battles, then MyGUI really does "have to go", even if it means a patch that is effectively a re-issue of the game.

    HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
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    5 years 7 months ago #7 by con20or

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  • Replied by con20or on topic Re: My Gui has got to go

    you are seeing the feedback from modders who miss the old system.


    No, this isn't what most complaints are about.

    The problems people raise on the forums about MyGUI are that it:

    1) Makes modding harder than Gettysburg. Even simple tasks like writing a new OOB are harder!

    2) In some areas limits what you can mod and how you can mod it (e.g. toolbars) over what was possible in GB.


    Are you sure - the top half of your list sounds like modders missing the old system to me!

    4 is a new one to me, but in fairness how much of the game do you spend with your save-menu open and why would you want to!?! The other closing windows issues we are looking at for the patch as I have already told you.

    The game won't be redesigned, sorry.

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    5 years 7 months ago - 5 years 7 months ago #8 by Saddletank

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  • Replied by Saddletank on topic Re: My Gui has got to go
    You call it "us missing the old system". We call it "the new system does not work as well". That is, its not a good choice for an SOW game as it lacks the ability to be used for what players want. It lacks the ability to even deliver one of the games core features - MP courier play - without giving a player hypertension. That seems a pretty critical design error to me.

    If #4 is a new one on you that merely highlights how little testing the team did on the new game. I found it about a week into owning the game. Whether its a thing a player comes across often or not is not the point, its the fact it exists at all that is the concern! Its clear you never played a longish MP game using courier messages between players or else no way would you have released it.

    HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
    Last edit: 5 years 7 months ago by Saddletank.

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    5 years 7 months ago #9 by NY Cavalry

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  • Replied by NY Cavalry on topic Re: My Gui has got to go
    The point of the original post is to give feedback.

    If the new system is considered a big advancement please do not think this way. If a player does like it better then the old system the next question is by what mark. Is it a big improvement or is it a slight improvement? I doubt that the 'improvement' was worth making a considerable portion of your base dissatisfied.

    Another point of the original post was to show that the developers in any new games, like a SOW Gettysburg 2, needs to use the old system. Your fan base should increase by 5x because of Napoleonics, but lets hope that an improved engine for a SOW Gettysburg 2 game will use the old system.

    We have all seen this before with big names such as Matrix (where commercial interest come first) start making suggestions because they are the experts. In my opinion give me the small independent game developer. Norbsoft needs to call the shots not Matrix.

    So, it is screw your base or produce games that keep us buying. It is your choice not mine. If your attitude is we have sales so no forget you.......again that is your choice.

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    5 years 7 months ago - 5 years 7 months ago #10 by con20or

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  • Replied by con20or on topic Re: My Gui has got to go
    Guys,

    MyGUi cannot go.

    I can't comment on the justification for a UI upgrade and have no explanation for why we missed obscure HITS bugs. Hopefully a recent review of SOWWL will demonstrate why we made it less daunting:

    "Compared to previous Scourge of War games though, Waterloo is the most user friendly having undergone a UI redesign."
    Last edit: 5 years 7 months ago by con20or.

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    5 years 7 months ago - 5 years 7 months ago #11 by NY Cavalry

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  • Replied by NY Cavalry on topic Re: My Gui has got to go
    I don't put much stock into reviews and neither should you. I have seen countless times where reviews are dead wrong.

    Best reviews are from players who actually take the time to get to know a program.
    Last edit: 5 years 7 months ago by NY Cavalry.

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    5 years 7 months ago #12 by Marching Thru Georgia

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  • "Compared to previous Scourge of War games though, Waterloo is the most user friendly having undergone a UI redesign."

    Was this an attempt to be humorous?

    With regards to "obscure HITS bugs", one only needed to play the game once to see them. There was nothing subtle about them.

    I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.

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    5 years 7 months ago #13 by con20or

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  • Replied by con20or on topic Re: My Gui has got to go
    We listen to feedback from everyone - we pride ourselves on it.

    Yes from the forum, regardless.
    Yes from reviewers.
    Yes from our partners.

    MyGUI cannot go, sorry.

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    5 years 7 months ago #14 by NY Cavalry

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  • Replied by NY Cavalry on topic Re: My Gui has got to go
    I am truly amazed that the time and effort was spent in the first place in making a new GUI when other Napoleonic game issues demanded to be addressed and were not.

    Napoleonics are much different from American Civil War and some of the issues were not even looked at.

    I don't want to be so negative. The team has done a very good job. The combined arms combat was done well. The service is very good. Waterloo is a good game even if when I play it I have to play it with a certain amount of frustration. SOW Gettysburg is much better. Though it took 2 other games to get it to where it is.


    I am worried about the direction that decisions are being made.

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    5 years 7 months ago #15 by Saddletank

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  • Replied by Saddletank on topic Re: My Gui has got to go

    no explanation for why we missed obscure HITS bugs.

    I am not talking about HITS, lets forget HITS.

    I am talking about courier play in MP. Courier play is a key element of Gettysburg's appeal. It's UNIQUE in online RTS gaming. It's a sell-sell-sell feature of the SOW franchise. It's fantastic, brilliant, immersive and fresh. Its a really neat feature.

    In Waterloo its broken.

    In Waterloo MP if the players communicate by free-text couriers the game is a frustrating mess with messenger boxes opening to wipe out the text message you are typing; pop-up message boxes converting your half-typed text message into game commands (!), messages overwritten by later ones, even while you're reading them! A clunky and slow interface to go back and read old messages... and several other frustrating elements that kill the immersion and joy of the game.

    And before anyone suggests to not use the free-text courier system to communicate between players, please let's be honest - why communicate any other way, when commanding your troops by courier, since voice comms or text typed in the chat box kills all the immersion and tension the courier system creates with its delays.

    Its this OBVIOUS and HUGE problem with courier MP play that shows the game wasn't tested in this mode.

    Can the NSD team get together and play a couriers and courier player-comms game? I know there are several people on the test team - Leffe7, Mitra, Sspoom - who have played dozens if not hundreds of games in this format with Gettysburg - so they will see at once the problem.

    How can a game with these glaring problems not have them fixed? I can't understand the decisions the team is making here.

    HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.

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    5 years 7 months ago #16 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re: My Gui has got to go
    MyGUI is not going anywhere. It was our solution to localization and it worked very well. It also added a lot of new controls that we really liked. Especially the tree OOB control. It was a lot of work putting it in, but in the end it saved us a lot of time when we added the new features.

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    5 years 7 months ago #17 by Volunteer

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  • Replied by Volunteer on topic Re: My Gui has got to go

    I am talking about courier play in MP. Courier play is a key element of Gettysburg's appeal. It's UNIQUE in online RTS gaming. It's a sell-sell-sell feature of the SOW franchise. It's fantastic, brilliant, immersive and fresh. Its a really neat feature.

    In Waterloo its broken.


    This +1000 times! When watching the marathon match on the 200 anniversary, the courier system had a unique appeal in what appeared a promising game release which I had buy and play! :)

    This game is my first foray into the SoW genre so I am not expert in it like Saddletank and other veterans. However I can readily discern the release remains rough around the edges.

    I patiently await an update which will fix the courier system and the awkward conga-line criss-crossing of marching units.

    SoW:W is a gem but its brilliance at the moment is unburnished.

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    5 years 7 months ago #18 by Ingles of the 57th

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  • For the first time on record,I have virtually given up and stopped playing a Norbsoftdev Game as I wasn't enjoying it one bit.

    This game is just too quirky for words. Over-ambitious and well out of the comfort zone. Get back to ACW just as soon as possible please.

    I have been consoling myself meanwhile with the obedient simplicity of TC2R.

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    5 years 7 months ago #19 by Saddletank

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  • Replied by Saddletank on topic Re: My Gui has got to go

    MyGUI is not going anywhere. It was our solution to localization and it worked very well. It also added a lot of new controls that we really liked. Especially the tree OOB control. It was a lot of work putting it in, but in the end it saved us a lot of time when we added the new features.

    Hi Norb, thank you very much for joining the discussion.

    How flexible is MyGUI? What can be done with it? Have your guys explored all its potential yet? Are there any add-on features you might import?

    The tragedy is that it's use really makes one of the main selling features of the game (the couriers mode) in MP not worth playing.

    I understand how embedded it is within the game but it is a solution that isn't suitable to the game, and especially to the complexity of Napoleonic warfare with all its many different generic formations and formation types that were peculiar to some nation's troops. The limitations of the toolbar are crippling.

    For some of your core and most loyal customers the situation is nearly to the point where its not worth us carrying on with this and reverting to Gettysburg.

    Can anything be done?

    Thanks.

    HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.

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    5 years 7 months ago #20 by norb-1

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  • Replied by norb-1 on topic Re: My Gui has got to go
    Our team is logging all issues in our ticket system and we are working on them. We are very slow right now or I should say I am very slow. But we will release fixes for bugs.

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