Repeating Rifles Upgrade

[boogabooga51]

I'm working on updating the rifles.csv values of repeating rifles, especially in the context of the Chickamauga add-on.

Here are the values I'm using (I left out a column to fit in thread):

Code: Select all

Name		    Ammo ID	                Min	Best	Normal	Long  Maximum	Reliability	ROF MROF

Colt_Repeating_USA  IDS_ARSN_Rifle_56_caliber	25	51	74	83    160	18.52668874	15  12

Henry_Repeating_USA IDS_ARSN_Rifle_44_caliber	25	51	75	85	160	17.45541581	4   3

Spencer_Repeating_USA IDS_ARSN_Rifle_52_caliber	25	49	74	85	160	15.66761851	8   6

Spencer_USA	    IDS_ARSN_Carbine_52_caliber	29	61	86	93	160	16.96667689	8   6



Model_1861_Springfield_USA IDS_ARSN_Rifle-Musk.	30	61	114	131	160	19.16830453	45  34

Rationale:

To calculate the new values, the Model_1861_Springfield_USA min and max ROF values (45,34) were used as reference.

The Spencer values are the Springfield values divided by 6 and rounded up (8, 6)- Spencer was not only a repeater but a breach-loader with metallic cartridges. I assume that its 7 round magazine could be loaded in about the same time it takes to load a Springfield. Then, I was a bit conservative to scale by 6 instead of 7 to account for the few seconds it takes to work the action.

The Henry values are the Springfield values divided by 12 and rounded up (4,3)- The Henry had a huge 16 round magazine and also used metallic cartridges. I scaled by 12 just to be conservative, and also I suspect it may have taken slightly longer than a muzzle loader to completely reload.

The Colt values are the Springfield values divided by 3 and rounded up (15, 12)- This one is trickier. The game seems to assume a constant rate of fire. It seems like the Colt revolving rifle could fire 5-6 rounds very quickly, but then took a long time to reload. I assume here that it would have taken twice as long to reload as a muzzle loader, but that it held 6 rounds- so I scaled by 3.


Perhaps some other values need to be tweaked. For example, the Colt had a reputation for low reliability. I could lower that. Also, Henry had low muzzle velocity, so I could tweak the ranges. But I don't know what values to use. Also, "Spencer_USA" seems to refer to the carbine, while "Spencer_Repeating_USA" to the full length. But, notice that the carbine seems to have larger Min, Best, Normal, Long, Maximum values. Should these be reversed, or have I misunderstood?


An unintended consequence of using these values seems to be that units armed with repeating rifles tire very quickly. I suspect that the game is counting the rounds fired in the equation to determine fatigue level. I don't know how to fix this, but even with that the improved ROF seems to be worth it.

[Davinci]

An unintended consequence of using these values seems to be that units armed with repeating rifles tire very quickly. I suspect that the game is counting the rounds fired in the equation to determine fatigue level. I don't know how to fix this, but even with that the improved ROF seems to be worth it.

Check the values in the ( statetables.csv, or the unitattributes.csv ) both can be found in the SDK if you don't have them in the Mod that you are working on.

The Problem here is that changing the values will prpoably ( affect ) all of the other units also.

davinci

[Martin James]

Hi boogabooga

I think you're right that the Spencers were a very effective weapon. The Colt repeaters had a more mixed reputation. When they worked well, the troops were very happy with them, but they proved unreliable in action, and my understanding is that they were withdrawn from service in 1864. Am very interested to see the results of your investigation.

Wilder's defeat of Manigault's Reb brigade at Chickamauga was a fine feat of arms, but I think the Spencers were only one factor. Manigault had lost control of his brigade and one of his four regiments had become detached. Conversely Wilder’s Brigade was a bit bigger to start with, and he was also joined in his advance by a Union regiment of Willich’s Brigade. Of course Wilder had to detach horse-holders, but he probably had a substantial numerical advantage, and this also allowed him to overlap Manigault’s left flank.

The danger with quoted rates of fire is that they might not have been achievable in battle, as opposed to the firing-range. Or alternatively they could only have been maintained for a minute or two. And if you could deliver this many rounds, could they be aimed in any meaningful sense? There is a Maximum Rate of Fire column in rifles.csv and I would be very interested to know how (or when?) the game uses it. Perhaps one of the NSD team could comment?

One approach I now use in my own modding is to find well-documented engagements, set them up as a min-scenario in the game, and test them repeatedly. The aim is not to get the historical result every time, but you should at least get it some of the time. It’s a good control on whether the changes you make are about right. Thankfully, this is one of those relatively well-documented fights. If you would like to try this, I can supply strength numbers for the two brigades, plus a couple of detailed maps, which you can use to deploy the individual regiments on the Chickamauga map, and see what happens. I also have a copy of an interesting MA thesis on the performance of Wilder’s brigade which might interest you. He clearly had ability, but seems not to have been the most reliable witness to his own exploits!

Send me a PM if you'd like to see this stuff.

Martin (J)

[Zeke]

Interesting discussion

The Colt repeaters were used at Chickamauga and used correctly it was deadly effective they were issued to a few Ohio Regiments in particular the 21st Ohio Volunteers which saw action with them on Snodgrass Hill - Confederates coming up against the weapon thought they were up against a brigade or division rather than a regiment! However it didn't stop them surrendering as they ran out of ammunition, this was one of the downsides of multiple fire weapons ammunition supplies very rarely kept up with demand on the battlefield. The other issue was with a fault called "chain fire" this was caused by gunpowder leaking from the paper cartridges into the weapons revolving chamber causing gas ignitions to occur within the multiple chambers burning or showering the unfortunate users with metal fragments. This was the main reason for the lack of adoption of the weapon and it was fully withdrawn by early 1864

The Spencer and the Henry repeaters were much better weapons and far more robust but even by the end of the war very few regiments were fully armed with weapons mostly they were still equipped with the single fire rifled muskets.

[Martin James]

The Spencer and the Henry repeaters were much better weapons and far more robust but even by the end of the war very few regiments were fully armed with weapons mostly they were still equipped with the single fire rifled muskets.

Yes I think that's right Zeke. I believe Wilson's large-scale cavalry expedition into Alabama in 1865 is held to be the best-resourced cavalry raid of the war. Wilson worked his contacts in the War Dept to get the best equipment. He made sure all his men had Spencers, but was only able to do that by stripping Spencers from several cavalry brigades he left behind.

Martin (J)

[boogabooga51]

@Davinci
Thanks for that. I don't understand those tables and if it affects everything else, I'm not going to touch it. This add-on is only meant to address a handful of regiments in the Chickamauga add-on. I can live with the high fatigue I guess, the improved ROF is still "worth it".

@Martin James

1) I am not quite using quoted rates of fire and I think I've been quite conservative with the values I am using. I think the Maximum rate of fire value is used by elite units; All units use a ROF between min and max based on their experience.

2) The problem with trying to recreate a historic battle is that SOW seems to me to overmodel casualty rates as it is. Also, I don't think distances or times in SOW are quite to 1:1 scale, either. And thanks for the offer, but I'm only trying to model this for a 'for fun' historical simulation game. I don't think I'm going to have time to study a academic military science thesis, sorry.

@ Zeke

Regarding the 21st OVI, they were GOING to be overrun. They were simply too badly outnumbered. IMHO, the repeating rifles allowed them the opportunity to expend all of their ammunition in the process, BECAUSE it could be expended quickly. By expending all of their ammunition, they caused the maximum amount of damage that they could. I believe that the alternative, had they had regular muskets, would have been to overwhelmed during the first Confederate charge and not hours later.

[Davinci]

@Davinci
Thanks for that. I don't understand those tables and if it affects everything else, I'm not going to touch it. This add-on is only meant to address a handful of regiments in the Chickamauga add-on. I can live with the high fatigue I guess, the improved ROF is still "worth it".

Understood!

But, it may not be as complicated as it appears.

It would seem that the only columns that you would have to edit would be the [F] and the [G] columns, since both of those control the (Fire), and the (Load) sections.

I think that the units that you have given those weapons to are loading and firing faster and that affects their fatigue level.

The Game states that it calculates this formula every ( 5 Seconds ) so it might be possible to slightly slow down their firing to a formula that isn't being calculated so often, while keeping them deadly.

davinci