I believe that the reason that we have a right to own guns was to prevent the government from getting too powerful. So if enough people got fed up enough to finally do the only thing that would actually change anything in Washington, and armed themselves and marched on DC. Could they do it? Would the lords of DC actually do something about their destruction of the middle class, turning all of us into the working poor? Or would they just force our own sons and daughters serving in the military to wipe us out? Not that a march on DC is the point, the point just is, could there be anyway at all to have a Civil War today? The justification is certainly there, but is it possible by any means at all? Would you have to get leaders in the military on your side? Since it would be more of a class war than a state war, where would we draw the lines?
I'm not trying to argue over whether or not there should be one, I'm just curious what's people's thoughts are on whether or not it's even possible.
Is a Civil War Possible Today?
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Amish John
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Re:Is a Civil War Possible Today?
I just can't see it being possible. Even though we still talk about the US in terms of the North, South, East, and West the way we are all linked by communications has made us much more desectionalized. The sectional issues aren't there to divide us nearly as much as they were in the last century.
Moving into the issues of today and the possiblility of an uprising based on economic issues, again, I can't see it happening. While we grumble about rising costs and political fiascos and \"clowns\" in high office we seem to have very little initiative to turn our frustrations into action, except for a very small percentage of \"activists\" of which there are always some. It still amazes me to realize the sacrifices individuals made to their families and fortunes during the Civil War to champion a cause. It seems beliefs were much more strongly held 150 years ago. I think, as a country, we are more apathetic than we used to be and more and more want someone else to act on our behalf.
If anything, I can see the discontent more apt to boil over where large numbers of people can gather and feed off each others' emotions, such as inner cities. But even then I have a hard time seeing a centralized national movement to take demonstrative action against Washington or state centers of government. Like the proverbial \"15 minutes of fame\", I think we have a mentality to have our \"15 minutes of anger\" and then shrug our shoulders and wait for the next rock to drop on the middle class.
But who knows, I could be wrong. Maybe things will get so bad and people will get stretched so thin things start getting ugly. Gas stations fire bombed. Oil company headquarters attacked. Who knows. Since it's lunch time I've had a chance to respond. By the way, shouldn't you be busy coding? B)
Moving into the issues of today and the possiblility of an uprising based on economic issues, again, I can't see it happening. While we grumble about rising costs and political fiascos and \"clowns\" in high office we seem to have very little initiative to turn our frustrations into action, except for a very small percentage of \"activists\" of which there are always some. It still amazes me to realize the sacrifices individuals made to their families and fortunes during the Civil War to champion a cause. It seems beliefs were much more strongly held 150 years ago. I think, as a country, we are more apathetic than we used to be and more and more want someone else to act on our behalf.
If anything, I can see the discontent more apt to boil over where large numbers of people can gather and feed off each others' emotions, such as inner cities. But even then I have a hard time seeing a centralized national movement to take demonstrative action against Washington or state centers of government. Like the proverbial \"15 minutes of fame\", I think we have a mentality to have our \"15 minutes of anger\" and then shrug our shoulders and wait for the next rock to drop on the middle class.
But who knows, I could be wrong. Maybe things will get so bad and people will get stretched so thin things start getting ugly. Gas stations fire bombed. Oil company headquarters attacked. Who knows. Since it's lunch time I've had a chance to respond. By the way, shouldn't you be busy coding? B)
Last edited by Amish John on Fri May 02, 2008 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
You can get farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone.
Re:Is a Civil War Possible Today?
But what if, for arguments sake, there was a large enough group of people that banded together. I believe that the government would treat them like activists and persecute them. There would be none of the respect that Lincoln showed. The government would mow them down. If people wanted to really get the fat cat's ears, they would have to pull terrorist tactics, and they couldn't kill anyone or they would lose any sympathy or support from the people.
Re:Is a Civil War Possible Today?
Amish John wrote:
OK, sorry, back to work....Since it's lunch time I've had a chance to respond. By the way, shouldn't you be busy coding? B)
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Amish John
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Re:Is a Civil War Possible Today?
I can't argue that it couldn't happen. Let's take as example the \"Million Man March\" in Washington a few years back. Obviously, that was put together as a peaceful demonstration. There was no doubt security in place by the government, but it was probably mostly kept low key. It seems the biggest danger would be with a group of that size that assembles for an announced and peaceful purpose that spontaneously, for whatever reason or inducement, turns into the local civil insurrection your speak of. I wonder if enough force could be brought to bear quickly enough to control it and in that geographical environment if it would spread to those not initially involved. A lot of ifs and speculation here, but from past history, some distant and some within our memory we know sometimes it doesn't require a major event to start a major reaction. Sometimes it's just something minor that pushes people, either singulary or in a group, over the edge.
And to gain the public support of principal, if not active immediate support, they could go after some unpopular institution, business, or organization. Maybe we could draw a parallel with Ft. Sumter. That action seemed to galvanize all the South.
And to gain the public support of principal, if not active immediate support, they could go after some unpopular institution, business, or organization. Maybe we could draw a parallel with Ft. Sumter. That action seemed to galvanize all the South.
Last edited by Amish John on Fri May 02, 2008 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
You can get farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone.
Re:Is a Civil War Possible Today?
Intesting thread!
Rather than another American Civil War in the true sense of the word the next test for the American people could be from external threats based on George Washington's prophetic vision during his darkest days of the Revolutionary War at Valley Forge.
There were three basic visions presented to Washington by whom he described as an angel. Here's some excerpts from his vision.
The first vision prophetized that America will win independance from England and become prosperous from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
...I heard the mysterious voice saying,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
Immediately a cloud arose from these countries and joined in mid-ocean. For awhile it remained stationary, and then it moved slowly westward, until it enveloped America in its murky folds. Sharp flashed of lightning gleamed through at intervals, and I heard the smothered groans and cries of the American People.
A second time the angel dipped water from the ocean and sprinkled it out as before. The dark cloud drew back to the ocean, in whose heaving billows it sank from view.
A third time I heard the mysterious voice saying,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
I cast my eyes upon America and beheld villages and town and cities spring up one right after another until the whole land from the Atlantic to the Pacific was dotted with them....
The second vision not only predicted the American Civil War but also that the 'Union' will win the conflict of which the aftermath will result in both opposing sides becoming 'brothers' once again rallying around the Union.
And this time a dark shadowy angel turned his face southward. From Africa I saw an ill omened spectra approach our land. It flitted slowly and heavily over every town and city of the latter. The inhabitants presently set themselves in battle array against each other. As I continued look I saw a bright angel on whose brow was traced the word 'Union.' He was bearing the American flag. He placed the flag between the divided nation and said,
"Remember, ye are brethren. "
Instantly the inhabitants, casting down their weapons became friends once more, and united around the National Standard.
Now the third vision which hasn't happened yet seems to predict an invasion on the United States by European, Asian and African hordes who will set out to destroy America. Millions in mortal combat! The vision seems to suggest that America will triumph through Divine Intervention. Scarry stuff, but remember his first two visions proved to be accurate.
At this the dark, shadowy angel placed a trumpet to his mouth, and blew three distinct blasts; and taking water from the ocean, he sprinkled it upon Europe, Asia, and Africa.
Then my eyes beheld a fearful scene. From each of these continents arose thick black clouds that were soon joined into one. And throughout this mass there gleamed a dark red light by which I saw hordes of armed men. These men, moving with the cloud marched by land and sailed by sea to America, which country was enveloped in the volume of the cloud. And I dimly saw these vast armies devastate the whole country and burn the villages, towns and cities, which I had seen spring up.
As my ears listened to the thundering of the cannon, clashing of swords, and the shouts and cries of millions in mortal combat, I again heard the mysterious voice saying,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
When the voice had ceased, the dark shadowy angel placed his trumpet once more to his mouth, and blew a long and fearful blast. Instantly a light, as of a thousand suns shone down from above me, and pierced and broke into fragments of the dark cloud, which enveloped America. At the same moment the angel upon whose head still shown the word 'Union,' and who bore our national flag in one hand and a sword in the other, descended from the heavens attended by legions of white spirits. These immediately joined the inhabitants of America, who I perceived were well-nigh over come, but who immediately taking courage again, closed up their broken ranks, and renewed battle.
Again amid the fearful voice of the conflict I heard the mysterious voice say,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
As the voice ceased, the shadowy angel for the last time dipped the water from the ocean and sprinkled it upon America. Instantly the dark clouds rolled back, together with the armies it had brought, leaving the inhabitants of the land victorious.
Then once more I beheld the villages, towns and cities springing up where I had seem them before, while the bright angel, planting the azure standard cried with a loud voice:
"While the stars remain, and the heavens send down dew upon the earth, so long shall the Union last."
So who knows for sure what the future will bring? Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!
Rather than another American Civil War in the true sense of the word the next test for the American people could be from external threats based on George Washington's prophetic vision during his darkest days of the Revolutionary War at Valley Forge.
There were three basic visions presented to Washington by whom he described as an angel. Here's some excerpts from his vision.
The first vision prophetized that America will win independance from England and become prosperous from the Atlantic to the Pacific.
...I heard the mysterious voice saying,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
Immediately a cloud arose from these countries and joined in mid-ocean. For awhile it remained stationary, and then it moved slowly westward, until it enveloped America in its murky folds. Sharp flashed of lightning gleamed through at intervals, and I heard the smothered groans and cries of the American People.
A second time the angel dipped water from the ocean and sprinkled it out as before. The dark cloud drew back to the ocean, in whose heaving billows it sank from view.
A third time I heard the mysterious voice saying,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
I cast my eyes upon America and beheld villages and town and cities spring up one right after another until the whole land from the Atlantic to the Pacific was dotted with them....
The second vision not only predicted the American Civil War but also that the 'Union' will win the conflict of which the aftermath will result in both opposing sides becoming 'brothers' once again rallying around the Union.
And this time a dark shadowy angel turned his face southward. From Africa I saw an ill omened spectra approach our land. It flitted slowly and heavily over every town and city of the latter. The inhabitants presently set themselves in battle array against each other. As I continued look I saw a bright angel on whose brow was traced the word 'Union.' He was bearing the American flag. He placed the flag between the divided nation and said,
"Remember, ye are brethren. "
Instantly the inhabitants, casting down their weapons became friends once more, and united around the National Standard.
Now the third vision which hasn't happened yet seems to predict an invasion on the United States by European, Asian and African hordes who will set out to destroy America. Millions in mortal combat! The vision seems to suggest that America will triumph through Divine Intervention. Scarry stuff, but remember his first two visions proved to be accurate.
At this the dark, shadowy angel placed a trumpet to his mouth, and blew three distinct blasts; and taking water from the ocean, he sprinkled it upon Europe, Asia, and Africa.
Then my eyes beheld a fearful scene. From each of these continents arose thick black clouds that were soon joined into one. And throughout this mass there gleamed a dark red light by which I saw hordes of armed men. These men, moving with the cloud marched by land and sailed by sea to America, which country was enveloped in the volume of the cloud. And I dimly saw these vast armies devastate the whole country and burn the villages, towns and cities, which I had seen spring up.
As my ears listened to the thundering of the cannon, clashing of swords, and the shouts and cries of millions in mortal combat, I again heard the mysterious voice saying,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
When the voice had ceased, the dark shadowy angel placed his trumpet once more to his mouth, and blew a long and fearful blast. Instantly a light, as of a thousand suns shone down from above me, and pierced and broke into fragments of the dark cloud, which enveloped America. At the same moment the angel upon whose head still shown the word 'Union,' and who bore our national flag in one hand and a sword in the other, descended from the heavens attended by legions of white spirits. These immediately joined the inhabitants of America, who I perceived were well-nigh over come, but who immediately taking courage again, closed up their broken ranks, and renewed battle.
Again amid the fearful voice of the conflict I heard the mysterious voice say,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
As the voice ceased, the shadowy angel for the last time dipped the water from the ocean and sprinkled it upon America. Instantly the dark clouds rolled back, together with the armies it had brought, leaving the inhabitants of the land victorious.
Then once more I beheld the villages, towns and cities springing up where I had seem them before, while the bright angel, planting the azure standard cried with a loud voice:
"While the stars remain, and the heavens send down dew upon the earth, so long shall the Union last."
So who knows for sure what the future will bring? Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!
Re:Is a Civil War Possible Today?
The checks and ballances and safeguards that we used to rely on to protect the middle class have been eroded in recent years by corporate influance.
Its this unchecked corporate influence that is in part why we're where we are today looking at the sale of our country to China and other financially more stable countries.
Unfortunately a large part of the blame is with us. We didn't question leaders when they said "debt is good" go out and buy anything that makes you feel good.....its good for the economy. Wrong.
Eight years ago we lived within out budget. We were stable, though in too much personal debt. Now we're spending like a drunken sailor and borrowing from countries that have money to invest .....countries that live within their budgets.
We have no one but ourselves to blame for not investing in education and critical thought.
If we don't criticize and question our elected leaders....become chicken when someone calls us unpatriotic for questioning leaders for trying to control our vote through manipulative fear, than what can we expect? Sigh. Wasn't it Himmler who said "It's easy to get people to do what you want; just get them to fear something". I'd hate to think the American people are so easily frightened but over the last two elections I have ample proof.
My advice is to vote for people who appeal to our better nature and hope we'll get back to a time when we could honestly say "in this country we the people rule".
The people who feel the most powerless are exactly the people who should vote.
It is, after all, not just a right, but an obligation.
O, and as a geazer, I'd honestly advize against voting for any hot headed saber wrattling geazer who hasn't a clue about the economy and did everything he could to get us to this point to begin with.
Thats my rant an I'm stickin to it.
PS: no one has to invade us for gods sake, they've already bought us.
Its this unchecked corporate influence that is in part why we're where we are today looking at the sale of our country to China and other financially more stable countries.
Unfortunately a large part of the blame is with us. We didn't question leaders when they said "debt is good" go out and buy anything that makes you feel good.....its good for the economy. Wrong.
Eight years ago we lived within out budget. We were stable, though in too much personal debt. Now we're spending like a drunken sailor and borrowing from countries that have money to invest .....countries that live within their budgets.
We have no one but ourselves to blame for not investing in education and critical thought.
If we don't criticize and question our elected leaders....become chicken when someone calls us unpatriotic for questioning leaders for trying to control our vote through manipulative fear, than what can we expect? Sigh. Wasn't it Himmler who said "It's easy to get people to do what you want; just get them to fear something". I'd hate to think the American people are so easily frightened but over the last two elections I have ample proof.
My advice is to vote for people who appeal to our better nature and hope we'll get back to a time when we could honestly say "in this country we the people rule".
The people who feel the most powerless are exactly the people who should vote.
It is, after all, not just a right, but an obligation.
O, and as a geazer, I'd honestly advize against voting for any hot headed saber wrattling geazer who hasn't a clue about the economy and did everything he could to get us to this point to begin with.
Thats my rant an I'm stickin to it.
PS: no one has to invade us for gods sake, they've already bought us.
Last edited by bedbug on Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re:Is a Civil War Possible Today?
Bedbug,
yep things seem to be coming to some kind of head. UnConstitutional laws, a probably irreversible Nat'l Debt, terrorism, good paying jobs outsourced overseas, foreclosures, gas prices, hegomonistic 'corporate-driven' wars without end in sight, rekindling of Cold WarII by foolish foreign policies, home values going down while property taxes go up, national ID cards, record debt held by the average American, bankrupcies, decline of the dollar, no real national energy policy, bank failures, brokerage failures, our trade imbalances, illegal immigration, globalism, NAFTA, GAAT, robotic traffic radar cameras at road intersections, increasing number of Americans without health care insurance, on and on and on....
Yet the 'average' American still has a decent decent but slowly eroding standard of living keeping in mind that India and China's middle class is rising while our's is slowly withering on the vine.
And yes our country has been up for sale for a while now. Who would ever of thought good ol Budweiser would be owned by a foreign country!
We Americans have become complacent in allowing all this to transpire right before our very eyes but we keep electing the same bunch of people. The pressure cooker aspect of all this is likely one day to 'pop' when things get intolerable and only then will the populous finally come to the realization that both major political parties are but two sides of the same coin. Both have allowed or encouraged our country's present sorry state either by accident, greed, incompetence, design... or all of the above.
Myself, right or wrong, i'm voting 'none of the above' this November by casting my ballot for the Libertarian Party. Quite frankly i personally had enough of the two so called major political parties as both are interestingly mantra'ing 'change'. What we need is to get away from the two party system and then maybe we'll see a real change.
:
yep things seem to be coming to some kind of head. UnConstitutional laws, a probably irreversible Nat'l Debt, terrorism, good paying jobs outsourced overseas, foreclosures, gas prices, hegomonistic 'corporate-driven' wars without end in sight, rekindling of Cold WarII by foolish foreign policies, home values going down while property taxes go up, national ID cards, record debt held by the average American, bankrupcies, decline of the dollar, no real national energy policy, bank failures, brokerage failures, our trade imbalances, illegal immigration, globalism, NAFTA, GAAT, robotic traffic radar cameras at road intersections, increasing number of Americans without health care insurance, on and on and on....
Yet the 'average' American still has a decent decent but slowly eroding standard of living keeping in mind that India and China's middle class is rising while our's is slowly withering on the vine.
And yes our country has been up for sale for a while now. Who would ever of thought good ol Budweiser would be owned by a foreign country!
We Americans have become complacent in allowing all this to transpire right before our very eyes but we keep electing the same bunch of people. The pressure cooker aspect of all this is likely one day to 'pop' when things get intolerable and only then will the populous finally come to the realization that both major political parties are but two sides of the same coin. Both have allowed or encouraged our country's present sorry state either by accident, greed, incompetence, design... or all of the above.
Myself, right or wrong, i'm voting 'none of the above' this November by casting my ballot for the Libertarian Party. Quite frankly i personally had enough of the two so called major political parties as both are interestingly mantra'ing 'change'. What we need is to get away from the two party system and then maybe we'll see a real change.
:
Re:Is a Civil War Possible Today?
Well, Iron, I certainly "feel yer pain", but still think you need to be a bit more discriminating.
My grandparents thought FDR was a monster, commie, etc, etc. but he saved the country by trying things till they worked. Today we have tons of opportunities to get it right....but it sure isn't from people who have their head stuck in the paradigms of the last century ....and I'd suggest placing a whole new supposition in at this point would be...well...pointless and counterproductive, if not disasterous.
The vote for Nader is probably responsible for what we have now.
Maybe in the future, but for now a vote for anyone outside the two imperfect parties we have would be a waste. No matter who gets in, there will be a change......I'm convinced more wise, healthy and thoughtful with one than the other. I don't like all of what my candidate proposes, but, hey, thats just the way life is.
I also think there are tons of people like us that are fed up with the status quo of being ruled by people who don't even know how many houses or cars they own who pretend to know what the working man is like.
The trick is getting passed the 2/3 majority to override veto's when you've voted in a clown as an employee.
But, having said all this....and back to the origional modern civil war question....I think a real concern we should all have is listening to those on radio or tv who would devide us with hate to get their ratings up. Its gotten to the point where people only listen to opinions that backup their own points of view....or actively seek out places to live because more "red" or "blue". We all have to take a deep breath and realize we all want the same basic things for our country and stop seeing the other side as "evil" or some kind of demons. Many of my best friends IMO are totally wrong politically, but they're still my good friends. If there is a civil war it would probably take the form of chaos through a total breakdown of order in part formented by these hate groups.
...and as far as Budweiser goes I have a MUCH better local micro brew.
My grandparents thought FDR was a monster, commie, etc, etc. but he saved the country by trying things till they worked. Today we have tons of opportunities to get it right....but it sure isn't from people who have their head stuck in the paradigms of the last century ....and I'd suggest placing a whole new supposition in at this point would be...well...pointless and counterproductive, if not disasterous.
The vote for Nader is probably responsible for what we have now.
Maybe in the future, but for now a vote for anyone outside the two imperfect parties we have would be a waste. No matter who gets in, there will be a change......I'm convinced more wise, healthy and thoughtful with one than the other. I don't like all of what my candidate proposes, but, hey, thats just the way life is.
I also think there are tons of people like us that are fed up with the status quo of being ruled by people who don't even know how many houses or cars they own who pretend to know what the working man is like.
The trick is getting passed the 2/3 majority to override veto's when you've voted in a clown as an employee.
But, having said all this....and back to the origional modern civil war question....I think a real concern we should all have is listening to those on radio or tv who would devide us with hate to get their ratings up. Its gotten to the point where people only listen to opinions that backup their own points of view....or actively seek out places to live because more "red" or "blue". We all have to take a deep breath and realize we all want the same basic things for our country and stop seeing the other side as "evil" or some kind of demons. Many of my best friends IMO are totally wrong politically, but they're still my good friends. If there is a civil war it would probably take the form of chaos through a total breakdown of order in part formented by these hate groups.
...and as far as Budweiser goes I have a MUCH better local micro brew.
Last edited by bedbug on Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Amish John
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Re:Is a Civil War Possible Today?
I think an uprising is only probable if we're not given our regular supply of screen shots and progress reports from the new game.:laugh:
You can get farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone.