So is this why SOW casualties are so high?

[Archer]

[quote]..The game is very much speeded up. Remember its about 4x to 6x scale speed so a defence line could be made in about 5 actual game minutes.[/quote]

The above quote is cut a different thread, but pertains to my question. Why are casualties always so high in this game? I'll play a 1 1/2 hour game with roughly 40k troops and in that 90 mins, total casualties will surpass the number at Antietam (22,700+ per wiki).

So why does the game perform this way, with a 4x to 6x speed scale? Is it because it's designed to be more a game than a historical simulation? Or is it everyone's tactics? i.e everyone rushes their regts to the front line and starts firing away ASAP?

I've read soldiers diaries saying they stood and fought for an hour or more trading shots with the enemy. It seems that in SOW, regts will only stand and fight for 5-10 mins before they or the opposing regt breaks. This means if i've TC'd a lots of regts i'm having to mouse click everywhere to keep my battle line intact by bring up supporting regiments to replace the broken ones that last just 5-10 mins.

If the reason for the 4x to 6x speed scale is to make SOW more fast paced so players won't lose interest I understand. But what if I want to have more of a historical simulation, is there anyway to slow down the speed scale? or lower weapon effectiveness?

I'm just an amateur Civil War buff, so maybe i'm mistaken in how a civil war engagement played out, but it seems SOW plays too fast, unless its suppossed to just be a game, instead of a simulation. thanks

regards
Archer

[Marching Thru Georgia]

Try using the Courier & Maps Mod. You'll find casualty rates more realistic.

[Saddletank]

My take on this is that simple common sense tells us the game cannot progress at a scale speed with scale low casualty rates because it would take 30 minutes just to deploy a brigade from road march into line of battle and battles would last eight hours or more. Only a smallminority of computer game players can invest that much time before a result is achieved.

I do agree that the casualty rates seem too high but I think this is also part of making the game enjoyable to the average gamer. Remember also that MP games need to be able to reach a result in a reasonable time.

There are mods out there such as MTGs Couriers & Maps mod that slow down the casualty rates and make units withdraw/rout at a lower threshold of %age casualties. I haven't checked many recent game results but I think our MP games tend to result in about 25% to 33% casualties which we think is more realistic. MTGs mod produces much longer and more gruelling firefights, with more unit managenent needed and fewer casualties (the mod lowers the lethality of the rifled musket considerably).

EDIT: Ha! MTG posted while I was typing.

[Archer]

Thanks MTG and Saddletank for the responses and info. I'll check out MTG's Courier and Maps Mod.

I understand making the game attractive to the average gamer and getting MP games to end at at reasonable time. Makes sense, and I thought that was probably one of the reasons. I just thought 4x-6x was pretty high.

Regarding the 4x-6x speed scale, is that for everything? casualties, marching, deploying formations, artillery firing rate etc?

thx

[Marching Thru Georgia]

Only the formation changing/movement was sped up to make the game playable. Stock firing rates for infantry and artillery are parade ground speeds. Battle rates of fire were much slower, of course, due to smoke, fear, etc.

[Kerflumoxed]

Only the formation changing/movement was sped up to make the game playable. Stock firing rates for infantry and artillery are parade ground speeds. Battle rates of fire were much slower, of course, due to smoke, fear, etc.

Just to play "Devil's Advocate" regarding MTG's battle rates of fire (65 to 70 seconds per reload), here is a varying viewpoint: "There's an excellent discussion of this issue in the Excursus "Rapidity of fire in the eighteenth century" in volume IV of Hans Delbruck's "History of the Art of War." Despite the heading, Delbruck includes various arms such as the Dreyse in the discussion and concludes, "With the Minie gun, with which the Prussian army was armed for a short time previously [to adoption of the needle-gun], firing was at the rate of one and a half shots per minute."

Just a footnote.

J

[Saddletank]

In some respects a higher rate of fire doesn't necessarily mean a higher lethality rate. Men who load and shoot fast are paying even less attention to where their musket or minie balls are flying than men who load and fire more deliberately.

Remember too that while ACW troops fired as they saw fit as individuals, Napoleonic troops fired by vollies on the instructions of their officers, so if the officers were calling out the motions too quickly there would always be some rank and file going through the motions but not actually shooting with every volley.

There's also always going to be periods of intense activity interspersed with longer periods of standing doing nothing so average fire rates can vary a lot.

Its probably more productive to look at battle casualties as %ages of the totals engaged and time engaged to give a casualties/minute/man value. As long as SOW doesn't produce heaps of dead like the First Day of the Somme and allows the player scope to manouvre and try different tactics, the game is probably working. I think its doing that now though I'd be the first to agree with Archer that losses are on the high side.

[Archer]

Only the formation changing/movement was sped up to make the game playable. Stock firing rates for infantry and artillery are parade ground speeds. Battle rates of fire were much slower, of course, due to smoke, fear, etc.

okay that's good to know. So how would one go about changing the formation and movement rates if you wanted to try at a more historical level? thanks!

[Saddletank]

In UnitGlobal.csv columns E & F control the walk and run speeds for all units in mph. You could reduce these, but keep everything in proportion, e.g. knock everything down by 25%

In Rifles.csv columns I, J and K control the rifle's reliability/misfire chance, maximum reload time and minimum reload time. You could lower the value in I, raise it in J and K. This would reduce the number of bullets travelling towards the target unit. There's similar columns in Artillery.csv

The first and last tables in StateTables.csv controls how quickly fatigue accrues as well as how long melees last and how lethal they are. I would suggest you download MTGs Couriers & Maps Mod and play a game or three with that to see how much different you think it feels. If you want slower games you can look in th eLogistics folder of the C&M Mod and compaare the 3 csv files above to the vanilla ones and adjust things further if you need to.

Be warned that pushing the envelope too far can give some unexpected results, so make changes in small increments and test them, also keep backups of the original csvs.

Be aware also that everything is inter-related in quite subtle ways. Fatigue is calculated every 5 seconds for each unit, so if you slow a unit down it will spend longer traversing a wood or fording a creek so will become more tired. Likewise a slower moving unit will take longer to march or charge towards an enemy unit firing at it, so curiously slowing move speeds down has the effect of increasing the lethality of all weapons. Thus you need to carefully adjust everything in proportion. Slow all moves by 25% but reduce all fatigue factors by 25% and weapon effects by 25%, etc.

Its very much a trial and error thing.

[Archer]

Thanks. I'll fiddle around with it and see what i can come up with. Thanks for letting me know how everything is inter-related. Didn't really think about that. esp how fatigue is calculated. thanks again!