KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.710

Marching Thru Georgia
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Marching Thru Georgia »

Hi Jack, glad you are enjoying the mod and thanks for the kind words.
Otherwise, excellent job. I'm going to have to write a new rifles.csv mod for reducing musket ranges down to 100 yards in SP, (120 yards for a standard musket is still a bit to long IMHO), but that's minor.
You'll want to be careful in doing that. The problem is that the infantry auto-charges at 40yd. Since units do not typically engage at maximum distance, but something less, you'll likely see more melees at the shorter distance.
How do you keep the 2nd unit in each Brigade from forming Skirmishers?
You don't. There is only one fighting formation for each class. So if we are to have skirmishers automatically deployed on the battlefield by the AI, then the skirmisher classes will always deploy that way. Hopefully, SOWWL will employ their automatic deployment in a more cleaver manner.
Question I have now is - what does the _1ST mean in the unit designation line in the OOB?
In theory, all French units were able to fight as skirmishers if need be. However, this would give the French player a large advantage, since he could place all his battalions in skirmish and waste the enemy lines in short order. As a compromise, I allow the first battalion of most French and a few appropriate allies brigades to be manually deployed that way. The AI won't use them in that formation.
When they are in skirmish order, they seem susceptible to (a) Cavalry, as they will not stand against them but retreat and (2) as the enemy infantry approach too closely, they will either fall back or retreat, thus leaving a hole in the line which requires some quick thinking to get someone else in there.
By design, the skirmishers will fall back when the enemy comes within 75yd. That was the typical method of driving them away if the enemy didn't have his own skirmishers to shield the line. Also, they are very weak if caught in a melee and will be butchered. You can put them in a klumpen if they are charged by cavalry, but it is not as strong as a formal square.
I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
Jack ONeill
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Jack ONeill »

MTG (and all),

Understand all this. Stupendous job.

Have found a way to deal with this issue. I have been detaching the Skirmisher battalions to operate essentially on their own. Here's what happens next - the newly designated 2nd battalion on the list in the brigade still forms as skirmishers, (whether designated or not in the OOB), in the main line of battle. This happens with any Nation's units. Best thing I've found it to keep the Skirmishers attached and just let them run around the field. I don't even try to keep them around, just let them run around and generally be annoying. All the rest of the Battalions in the Brigade do what they are supposed to do, stay in line and blaze away. If/When the skirmishers are routed, then there is another story. Oh well...

Anyway, if too much stupid doesn't happen, (ha-ha, fat chance), I should be able to join you all at the end of the month. I've registered at the Forum but haven't been able to really check it out, yet.

Jack B)

Oh yes, regarding the French skirmishing - Most studies I've read tend to agree that the French Infantry tended to not be able to do so much as the wars progressed. After 1809 the loss of so many experienced soldats led to more artillery support being required and columns of assault to keep the newer lads moving forward.
Last edited by Jack ONeill on Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
American by birth, Californian by geography, Southerner by the Grace of God.

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Martin James
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Martin James »

Hey Jack

Glad you’re going to be joining us for games! There are occasionally problems with K/S forum registration at the moment, due to work that’s currently underway to upgrade our website. Do let me know if you have any difficulty posting there.

You’re right that the French skirmish ability tended to decline later in the wars. This is a subject we have discussed at some length within our group. At the moment the KSNapoleon mod adopts a somewhat generic approach to skirmishing, for practical reasons. Nevertheless some account is taken of differences in skirmishing ability between the various armies. In the future, it will hopefully be possible to have a fuller treatment of both ‘national’ characteristics and also changes over time.

Martin
Jack ONeill
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Jack ONeill »

MJ,

So, played again last night. I think I've figured this out.

Played Div. Cmd. as Gudin. The picture shows Boyer's Brigade under fire. The Battalion moving forward is not the original designated skirmish battalion. That unit was detached and is running around being annoying. As can be seen in the screenshot the AI has overridden the non-skirmish designation and is deploying it as skirmishers. Now, granted, I have clicked on the "Line with Skirmishers" icon, so this is what happened.

So, It all depends on what formation one is using. If a unit is not a skirmisher-designated Battalion, it will stay in line with the rest of the brigade and only go out if the formation requires it. I will continue to test this so I don't get caught out again. Yes, if the 2nd or 3rd battalion in order IS a skirmisher battalion, it WILL deploy as skirmishers, (French Light Infantry Battalions in Brigade battleline being the obvious reference here.)

Yes, the generic version of balanced skirmish units is a good idea.

Jack B)
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American by birth, Californian by geography, Southerner by the Grace of God.

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Saddletank
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Saddletank »

I'm slightly reluctant to endorse your tactic of detaching the sk unit and "sending it off to be annoying elsewhere". I'm fairly confident that skirmishers remained always under the command of their brigade and didn't do their thing freestyle.

Should I assume you don't play with couriers? Detaching a sk unit with the courier system would most likely get it beaten up pretty badly fairly quickly because your control becomes more limited and neds a direct LoC to all units.
HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
Jack ONeill
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Jack ONeill »

T,

I absolutely see the advantages of both versions - attached and unattached skirmisher units.

As someone who has been under fire, I can attest to how difficult it would have been to maintain communication with a skirmishing unit with all hell going on around you.

I have 4 reasons for detaching the skirmishers from their parent Brigade -
1) As they ARE skirmishers, they belong out there doing their thing, not in the line of battle.

2) If they are drawn back into the line of battle, when the enemy closes, they form as skirmishers and run off when the enemy units reach 80 yards distance, (the aforementioned gap in the line).

(3) If I want to change the Brigade formation, The skirmishers will either (a) stop skirmishing and try to return to the formation, which will disrupt the formation as units move aside to fit the skirmishers back into their previously assigned spot. Under fire, this is not a great idea. Generally, they will stop returning and open fire, leaving the parent unit formation missing said unit.

(4) We cannot give unit specific orders, such as "Major LeClerc, take the skirmish Companies out 200 yards and blaze away at the enemy battle-line. If they push you, fall back firing. Do this until we advance, then screen us as we attack." I will leave the skirmishers attached as I advance, (it looks great AND is effective), but generally detach them if I'm in a static or defensive position. They can fire and fall back, as in real life, while I concentrate on where the main enemy attack will hit and adjust accordingly.

My (albeit limited) experience so far is they can take care of themselves, unless attacked by Cav, then they are screwed anyway. Also, I like being able to have them run around to a position on the flank of the enemy line and blaze away into them as the formed troops trade fire.

Anyway, just my two cents, (allowing for inflation).

Yes, I go back and forth on using couriers.

Jack B)
American by birth, Californian by geography, Southerner by the Grace of God.

"Molon Labe"
Marching Thru Georgia
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Marching Thru Georgia »

The one advantage to detaching the skirmishers is that when they engage, they don't drag the rest of the brigade into the fight. That's a shortcoming of the game engine. When one battalion comes under fire all the others maneuver around to join the fight. With the skirmishers detached, they can do their thing and the rest of the parent formation is maintained. However, if they are pushed back to their own lines, it would be better to re-attach them.
I can make this march and I will make Georgia howl.
Jack ONeill
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Jack ONeill »

MTG,

Agreed. They are generally a spent force by then. Attaching them again keeps them out of the way at the end of the battle-line where, if they do form skirmishers, it doesn't disrupt the rest of the line. I've done that also.

Jack B)
American by birth, Californian by geography, Southerner by the Grace of God.

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Saddletank
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Saddletank »

If they are pushed back you can always TC them and form them in close order.
HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
Jack ONeill
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Re: KriegsSpiel Napoleon Mod 1.650

Post by Jack ONeill »

...and I have done so, only to see them form as skirmishers as soon as the enemy is close enough, even when TC'd. The AI overrides the command. I've tried this a number of times. If they'd stay in the formation selected while TC'd, I'd be good with that, but they don't.

Jack B)
American by birth, Californian by geography, Southerner by the Grace of God.

"Molon Labe"
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