Scourge of War Boards

Okay. . . well. . . I generated so much interest in my stock roads should be faster to move on thread I thought I'd give it a shot in one on Hits and Couriers.

So here it goes. . .

I downloaded MTG's mod and played a few Hits games as a brigade commander -- certainly a different and cool look at the terrain. I've played a lot of courier games back when JJ Gordon was pushing for it in the Shenandoah Club days, but those games were as a division commander and no Hits.

My opinion, so far, is that courier by brigade is as unrealistic as no couriers when playing Hits. I mean. . . I must have sent 150 couriers in an hour long game (if not more), and most of them were trying to get my regiments to stop on the fences. Did brigades commanders even send many couriers to their regiments in the Civil War? And honestly, playing Hits, you have to be pretty close to a regiment to give it a decent move to order anyway. To me, the many couriers sent takes away from the historical feel of a Hits game at brigade level.

Playing with couriers from a division or above level makes sense, especially if you don't TC brigade commanders (if you're division command) or divisions commanders (if you're corps command) and let the subordinates do the work (only giving them movement and stance orders). You can watch the battle unfold and it's a whole different game than micromanaging the brigades in a non-hits, non-couriers game.
Not my thing, but it makes sense.

I'm all for using couriers for communication between commanders and limited TS chat during Hits games (if you're close you can use a whisper to talk to whomever you're close to).

So I'm going to start hosting some GCM games with Hits and couriers only for communication and limited TS chat rules.

So. . . who agrees and who disagrees that couriers by brigade is unrealistic?

I think the concept was that the courier is taking the place of you riding over and shouting at that regiment to move this way or attack that way, etc. However, because of the many pop-up messages each time you send a courier to change a regiments orders something new should probably be done in the mean time until it is fixed in the next patch. A more role playing aspect would be an honor system where you ride over to the regiment you want something done to rather than instant click (often the regiment could not here you if you are shouting from the opposite end of the line therefore an "instant telepathy" click would be unrealistic. I agree couriers weren't often if ever used at the regiment level. A brigade commander would ride over there himself most likely since it would take about the same amount of time to draft a letter up.

I'd be willing to test out courier by division where you have to be within earshot of the regiment to order them, at least the pop ups wouldn't be in the hundreds, which does detract from game play I must admit. I guess the main problem is always that some people will break the honor system, so it's all about playing with players you trust if you have it (courier by brigade) switched off.

I agree, Baldwin. I do think that playing Hits as a brigade commander kind of negates the need for couriers, as I said, you have to be pretty close in Hits to give effective orders anyway.

If you're good you can still give radio orders to a regiment dashing around the flank 1000 yds away.

If you're good you can still give radio orders to a regiment dashing around the flank 1000 yds away.

Giving orders and giving effective orders are two different things.

The reply messages are a pain. For division command and above, they are not an issue because those commanders don't issue many orders. In fact they can be a great help because at times you can't even see the brigade or battery to which you are giving an order. It's nice to know they at least received it. Apart from that, I think moving regiments via couriers, (by courier I mean time delay), is fine. Orders could only be shouted a very short distance. For anything else the brigade commander would either have to ride over to the regiment himself or send a runner.

While I only use written orders when acting as a division commander, As brigade commander, I only use point and click and the toolbar for moving individual regiments. The only exception is 'move to cover' which is written, as I don't have a button for that. If I have to tell a front line unit to do something, I will normally ride over to it so as to minimize the chance of the courier dying and also if for some reason it ignores me, I can TC it and force it to do what I want.

Yes I think Soldier is right, they could be 1000 yards off and would appear as confused as if their commander was indeed 1000 yards off in addition to getting no commander bonus so they would break pretty quick with our mod. We leave the trees on plus we have 2 view range, so you are unlikely to see them at all at that range, so that would hurt you more than help you.

Yes, regiments have to be talked to by someone, whether its the brigadier riding over there or an aide sent on a horse to hurriedly shout "Advance to those woods and face north Colonel, quick!" So couriers MUST have been used if the brigadier didn't personally go.

Thus I see no realism issue in couriers at brigade level.

What we do have though is brain-dead colonels of regiments who won't line their men along that wall unless you send a courier to hold his hand and show him, like he's a grade school kid. That is where the game is lacking, not in the courier system, but in the AI of the regiments.

Maybe its also us, the players, who like to micromanage too much? Perhaps don't TC any of your regiments and just deploy your brigade generally where you want it to be and let the individual regiemmnts get on with the job as best they can.

And I agree - pop up confirmations of every point and click order sent should be able to be toggled off, certainly ones within, say, 400 yds of your general. As MTG said, sending a courier to a more distant unit and the confirmation pop-up is useful because you frequently can't see the unit you are talking to.

Soldier - did you have these settings in your sowgb.ini file?

[Custom]
ailvl=0
moralelvl=0
regstrength=100
plyrradius=2
courierlvl=4
minimap=4
MPplyrradius=2
MPcourierlvl=4
MPminimap=4

Those are what we use - it also gives a blank minimap as well as fixing your POV hard to the saddle.

No Digby, the 10 yard setting is fine with me; I'm 6'4" so standing in my stirrups gives me a height advantage. And I've been playing with a blank minimap for years now.

Whether it's the fault of bad ai led regiments or the courier system doesn't make any difference to me, but there's no way brigade commanders sent hundreds of couriers in a single engagement.

As the game stands, point and click courier by brigade isn't historical at all and is in fact rather silly.

"Maybe its also us, the players, who like to micromanage too much? Perhaps don't TC any of your regiments and just deploy your brigade generally where you want it to be and let the individual regiments get on with the job as best they can." -- Digby

I have no urge to play letting the ai control my troops. That will never happen in GCM games. As I've stated, couriers at the division level and above makes sense in single player games where the player wants to watch the battle unfold and only give macro orders. Not my cup of tea, but it makes sense.
Nothing about couriers by brigade feels historical to me, and really, playing from the saddle as a brigade commander negates the need for the delay couriers gives you -- in my opinion.

And you can disable courier pop-ups. Mine are. They still pop-up when they come from another human player.

there's no way brigade commanders sent hundreds of couriers in a single engagement.

I agree. Yet couriers or personal intervention by senior officers (i.e shouting) were the ONLY TWO WAYS a brigadier had to communicate to his troops. No-one had cell phones or was telepathic, so what was going on in the real battles?

Answer: far fewer orders were sent.

I found, early on when I began playing HITS that the battlefield was smothered with my couriers. Today, after several months of getting better at using the system, I use far fewer.

You will too, given time, and then your view of brigade-level couriers might change.

We, as wargamers, as I said, like to micro-manage our troops. Its a perfectly natural impulse to want a regiment to go to exactly a certain point to gain a certain cover bonus but it is the limitations of the GUI of the game and a lack of regiment-level AI that we have to send 3 or 4 couriers over there at 30 second intervals to achieve this.

So, its not the courier system at the brigade level that's the weak link, but other elements of the game.

As you get better at seeing and becoming comfortable with the view of the battlefield from head height, you'll judge things better, see folds in the ground sooner and be able to click a mouse at the base of a fence or wall accurately so that your regiments form on it first time, rather than that dumb AI colonel having to be told by your couriers three or four times "No, dumbass, here. HERE!"

You can't expect to be an expert at something you've just begun to do. Like driving a car, it takes a while to get good at it.

As the game stands, point and click courier by brigade isn't historical at all and is in fact rather silly.

I don't accept your argument that it isn't historical because you've failed to support it with any evidence, but as I have explained above couriers are sent too frequently. This doesn't make it 'silly' or 'unhistorical' it only makes it, to a certain degree, an imperfect system. But then again, what about this game isn't imperfect?

While I agree with you that having too many couriers running about the place looks wrong, it seems a minor point to take issue with when there are far bigger problems with the game, a fantastic game though it is.

Bear in mind also that time is greatly compressed in this game. Troops march too fast, shoot much too accurately, change formation too quickly and GCM battles with 30,000 men a side are over in 90 minutes. In our courier games battles the same size are done in 150 minutes, which usually includes around 20-40 minutes of approach march. So everything is happening faster and more intensely. Against this rapid rate of activity, lots of couriers doesn't look so wrong as one would at first think. If a corps-level battle can be concluded in 150 minutes when one would in reality take a day (say 10 hours) then the game is running at about x4 real speed. Your 90 minute games make the time differential x6.66. In terms of real time activity couriers are not being sent every minute, but every 4 minutes, or every 7 minutes. That seems a far less outrageous time interval for a brigadier to send a rider to his regiment for a sitrep and a minor change of tactical position.

I have no urge to play letting the ai control my troops.

Entirely your choice, and coming from you, entirely to be expected. I was only making a suggestion. But before you go slating the brigade courier system as 'silly' and 'unhistorical' bear in mind that in the ACW many brigade generals were content to let their regiment commanders make these decisions and so fewer couriers were sent.

playing from the saddle as a brigade commander negates the need for the delay couriers gives you -- in my opinion.

I am struggling to follow the logic of that but if you think its okay for your colonels to all be telepathic and respond to your orders instantly, even though one might be a mile away, that's fine, but don't hold that view while saying that brigade level couriers are 'silly' and 'unhistorical'. There's a cake there on the table. I'm letting you have it but I'm not letting you eat it as well.

I think the key issue about couriers at brigade level for you Soldier is the lack of control. You personally cannot control your reginments as freely, rapidly and as accurately as you would wish, in the way that you are used to doing. To a highly competitive gamer this must be quite an unpleasant shock. But this is fine too; no-one is making courier play obligatory. But please look for reasons closer to home as to why you may not like a game system before labelling it (without any supporting evidence) as silly and unhistoricial, since it plainly is neither of these.