Scourge of War Boards

....is me re-opening The Can of Worms.

I am not happy with the "fix" for column charging that has been put into place.

There are still many players that use it and they defend it with the argument that "this is the fix that the dev team has put into place, the game allows it, so it is alright to do this." That is ridiculous, these are probably the same guys that go into the local convenience store and pull $3 from the penny jar. Congratulations buddy, it's legal and you can do it, but you just made an ass of yourself.

Let's put this into perspective. This is not Command & Conquer, Total Annihilation, or Starcraft. This is Gettysburg and it is a Civil War game. It should be in everyone's best interest to make this game as close an emulation of a Civil War battlefield as possible. If there is a feature of the game mechanics that prevents that, then all due diligence should be made to adjust those mechanics.

My biggest issue is that infantry should be punished for remaining in marching columns while in artillery range. It was the rule, not the exception, for infantry to deploy into lines as soon as they came into enemy artillery range. Solid shot would chew them up by the dozens at hundreds of yards. Kerflumoxed (aka Baylor) accurately described it as a bowling ball screaming down the line with arms and legs flying everywhere.

Also, any regiment that is unfortunate enough to find themselves on the receiving end of a canister blast while in line formation should pay a tragic price for that mistake. I believe that at least a third, perhaps half, of the regiment should be vaporized and that their morale should instantly break.

Likewise, infantry should be able to reach out and touch the artillery at the same range as canister. Rifles need to be effective against artillery at canister range and they should be very effective. Artillery needs to be placed behind the lines of infantry.

This leads me to artillery effectiveness. The reason that artillery is currently rushed forward to the battle lines is that it is only really effective at close range. Counter-battery fire needs to be more effective at longer ranges and solid shot needs to be devastating to columns at long range.

Right now, there is no depth to the battlefield. Everyone rushes everything (infantry and artillery) right up to the lines and attacks seem to be more reminiscent of Chinese human waves in Korea than the Civil War chess matches that we all know and love.

I suppose that I am looking for some sort of acknowledgment from Norb or the Test Team that these issues are being looked at. Norb, I know this is your baby, your idea, your concept. What you do is your choice. However, I would like to know for my own interest if this game will end up moving in the direction I would like it to. It is beginning to become a frustrating experience for me knowing that it is so close, yet it has this glaring issue. I also suspect that others feel the same way.

I say that if you agree with me, speak up or forever hold your peace!

Hi Rich Mac.

I'm in agreement. Perhaps before playing a game, everyone must agree to not use the column charge.

Can of worms? Most likely.

Cheers Rich Mac. Hope to see you on the battlefield soon.

I agree with mac. This column charge is a nuisance. There are ways to defend against it , but they don't always work. Let infantry in column formation take many more casualties than they do now.
I prefer to play Union and am at a disadvantage already. That is fine with me. Rebel infantry is usually rated higher and I deal with that. But why do I also have to deal with column charging infantry at my guns?

So, I agree with mac...........

NY Cavalry wrote:

I agree with mac. This column charge is a nuisance.

Short term fix, guard your artillery the best you can.

But really we discussed many options to fix this, but they were all too risky to for the official patch and would probably break something else. This is high on the list for the feature patch though and we'll come up with a solution.

Currently, the game does not distinguish the effect of arty fire on different infantry formations or facings. Obviously enfilade fire should have a greater effect than fire perpendicular to a line. In fact I tried to model this with a mod I created a while back. This and other arty issues are on the list and will get attention.

But given that Norb has a day job and can only work on the game in his spare time, the process of getting changes into it can seem maddingly slow. That, and the law of unintended consequences always shows up just when we think we've solved the problem. Casualties based on formation and facing will be a major change. Working through all the ramifications that this will entail will be slow and require a fair amount of game testing.

We all have special areas of interest where we would like to see major improvements and additions. I, for instance, would like to see a number of changes in the courier system. All of these requests require the attention of the programming staff. That department is woefully small at the moment and unlikely to increase in size.

There are quite a few major additions planned to the next feature patch, arty is one of them. But given that the plate upon which we have piled all this on is rather small, I'd be astounded if they all make it into this next upgrade. That doesn't mean they will never appear, it just may take a while. Patience will be a virtue.

Little Powell wrote:

NY Cavalry wrote:

I agree with mac. This column charge is a nuisance.

Short term fix, guard your artillery the best you can.

But really we discussed many options to fix this, but they were all too risky to for the official patch and would probably break something else. This is high on the list for the feature patch though and we'll come up with a solution.

Little Powell -

Unfortunately there is more to it than that. When infantry regiments are TC'd they can move in column - despite being under fire from multiple directions - sprint several hundred yards, quickly change into line and charge. The only defense against this is placing a regiment/s close to the battery and then counter-charging while the guns pull out. With Reb regiments being bigger and better at melee than Union regiments, the Reb regiment invariably wins and continues UBER-charging repeatedly to wipe out the guns. Another variation will be that a player will TC and column charge more regiments in an area than there are regiments available to counter-charge. The end result is one mass melee.

I don't think anyone has a problem with mass assaults or being overwhelmed by them, but that is not what we are taking about in many of these instances. These are generally 1-2 rogue regiments that are TC'd and try to snake their way through to target batteries. That being said, the current game mechanics allow this to exist and if someone wants to exploit it, they can.

Really the key issue in this discussion is not necessarily the column charging issue, but the fact that the game engine have also lead to the ahistoric use of artillery. As players continue to roll the guns up out in the open with no regard to counter-battery fire, infantry players have not choice but to resort to the column charge exploit. The reason players continue to roll up the guns is because they are not as effective as they should be at increased distances and because counter-battery fire is not as punitive as it should be.

As to fixing it the problem, there are multiple tweaks that can be implemented, which when combined, will more adequately address the problem:

#1 - Extend the range, with a scaled rate of effectiveness, for infantry out to 200 yards. Most MP battles, despite the 160 yard range, are being fought at about 120+ yard range. Extending the effective range of infantry will allow infantry to have an option to defend themselves, as opposed to simply resorting to kamikaze suicide attacks. This will minimize the tactic of players from rolling guns up out in the open to blast away as there will be a painful reminder if they get too close.

#2 - Increase the casualty/morale/fatigue hits for long-range artillery fire. At this point in time, the majority of players move artillery up way too close - into canister range - because the artillery is still not hitting anything. CW artillery was pretty darn accurate, but at this point in time (just ask Bishop Polk!), you can't hit the broad-side of a barn unless you are at 200 yards or closer. No one expects to run up 20 kills a shot, but firing into a mass of men at 350 yards and having no casualties? That isn't realistic even under the premise that even a "blind squirrel finds a nut."

#3 - Increase the casualty/morale/fatigue hits for units moving in column when in artillery range. Units did not move 4-abreast in column close to the battlefield because when they got hit with artillery fire, that cannonball would chew up 20-30 troops before it came to rest.

#4 - Increase the morale/fatigue hit for units charging. This will more accurately reflect the morale/fatigue stress that charging units incur when charging a position. At this point in time, the hit is very minimal and players can repeatedly charge units multiple times with little/no negative impact.

#5 - Institute a morale check before a successful charge. If the unit doesn't have the morale at a high enough point (as it is under fire from multiple directions, fatigued, etc), than the charge fails. This would reflect units pinned under fire that were not gonna get up in a suicide charge.

#6 - Decrease the speed in which in units deploy into/out of column. As it stands now, units can sprint into and out of column way too quickly. By slowing down that deployment speed it will impact the effectiveness of column charging as the regiments would be under fire for a bit longer period of time - incurring casualty/fatigue/morale damage.

#7 - Increase the effectiveness, at a scaled rate based upon distance, of counter-battery fire. This change will be the most effective one in forcing artillery back from the front lines. Because of the ineffectivness of artillery, most players have abandoned any attempts to keep the guns back. As a result, they continue to roll them up in support of attacking infantry as mobile shotguns. Now, counter-battery fire is ok in some circumstances, but it takes entirely too long to disrupt a battery out in the open at less than 500 yards. Historically, batteries only would even attempt to move up IF there were no opposing batteries in range or they had been driven off.

I don't think any one of these 7 tweaks need to be overdone individually, and that a combination of small tweaks to all 7 will be more than enough to re-balance the game. Ultimately this is a Civil War game and the game engine should reward historical tactics and should punish ahistoric tactics. Overall, I really enjoy the game and especially MP play and with a few minor tweaks the game play will be all the more better.

*S*

Willard

These are all great points Willard and just like every request made on this forum, they will be taken into consideration. I will second what MTG said; it just takes time... a lot of time given the small size of our team... Even a small change (like your #1 or #2 for example) would be a simple enhancement for MP, it could drastically change the difficulty level of the historical scenarios. So even the smallest changes take weeks of testing, and when one thing is fixed, it often breaks something else...

There is a report open on this subject in our bug tracking system, and I will be sure to include your ideas.

I will say that this is a great game and that this problem is a product of your own success. The game has been made to be very historical. I will continue to play regardless. Gentlemen's rules should be sufficient, but is not to some players.

Keep up the good work. I'm still going to keep playing way more than I should.



Maybe we could deactivate the codes of players who column charge???????????


That is just a joke.........

Hmmm... How about NSD develop a micro-pay model.

You want that column charge? $0.25
You want to reload? $0.25
You want to force march? $1.00

Ad Infinitum ad nauseam.

:ohmy:

As a Civil War artillery enthusiast, I concur with several of Capt. Willard's concerns. Fortunately for all of us, many of these have been addressed in Mr. Gordon's (Mayer) new "Campaign Game" that will be starting in the next few days. Increased range, target effectiveness and ability to manuever, all more representative than the stock OOBs. Additionally, the sides are balanced for fairness and even-handedness, i.e. not one side has a large numerical advantage nor does one side have all militia and the other all verterans. It will be a test of YOUR ability to command troops in a more historical manner or, in other words, are you as good as you think you are

This is a "beta" game adjustment that will require some play-testing and a learning curve. Mr. Gordon is always available for play testing and invites those interested to join in the lobby and give it a whirl!

Also, to join the new Campaign, go http://www.usvmc.net/csa/

Gentlemen, this a unique opportunity to rise above the normal, daily occupation of all soldiers of all times: "Grousing" (in polite terms)! Be positive in your evaluation, give it a fair shot, recognize it is not the normal "point & click" type of game, and be prepared to experience a more realistic game! You WILL have a good time, once you master the nuances and intricacy's! Give it a try!

Best regards to all,

J