Hi,
I have been discussing this issue with Reb in another forum, but we think it may be better to raise it here as it is not a MoD issue and happens in the 'vanilla' game.
When I detach a unit, for example a rifle battalion, and split this off into groups using the split formation option I find these split units are automatically recalled (un-split) whenever the original formation commander is given a stance order other than "None". This happens even if the parent unit and the split units are detached and TC on. This happens in both stock scenarios and sandbox games.
You may wonder why I am concerned with such small unit tactics when Armies are being manoeuvred, but I usually play at Division level or below, even when I select a larger Corps level game I select a Division to command. The option use deployed skirmish companies is then denied me unless I either leave the brigades without orders or TC the officers.
It seems odd that one cannot detach and deploy skirmishers to various positions without them being recalled whenever the original formation commander is given an order. If the unit is detached this order should have no effect on it?
I would be grateful for any thoughts or explanations.
Split Unit / Skirmisher recall when formation orders change
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Saddletank
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Re: Split Unit / Skirmisher recall when formation orders change
I would have thought that if a brigade commander were issued new orders, he'd want his skirmishers redeployed which is why I suspect NSD made the mechanism work the way it does. Leaving skirmishers where they are doing the job they're doing implies no change in orders (stance).
HITS & Couriers - a different and realistic way to play SoW MP.
Re: Split Unit / Skirmisher recall when formation orders change
Hi Saddletank, thanks for posting a response. I agree that a formation commander should retain control over any skirmishers deployed from their Brigade or Division, but I do not think it realistic to do this when the skirmish units and/or their parent unit has been detached for another purpose and are therefore outside of the commanders control. In this particular battle, Waterloo, of which the game is supposed to be a simulation, there are many examples of this.
Hougoumont, which at the commencement of the battle was garrisoned by:
• The light companies of the 2/2 and 2/3 foot guards, part of Byng's Bde of the 1st Div.
• Six companies of the 1/2 Nassau, part of Saxe-Weimar's Bde of the 2nd DB Div.
1 Coy in the Chateau, 2 in the gardens, 1 on the orchard and 2 in the wood.
• Also deployed in the wood were 100 men of the Han Feld Jager Korps and 50 men each from the Grubenhagen
and Luneberg Light Bns, all part of Kielmannsegge's Bde of 3rd Div.
Further light companies from the 2/1 and 3/1 foot guards, Maitland's Bde of the 1st Div, reinforced soon after the commencement of the French assault.
So there are elements of 4 different brigades deployed in defence of this position.
La Hay Saint was similarly garrisoned by various elements of different units detached for its defence.
• 6 companies of the 2 Lt Bn KGL; 1 deployed in the garden, two in the farm buildings and 3 in the orchard.
This Bn was part of Ompteda's Bde of the 3rd Div.
• To the east were 6 companies of 1/95, deployed in three groups; 2 in the sandpit, one lining the hedge
just to the north of the pit.
The garrison was later reinforced by 2 Coys of 1 Lt KGL, 1 Coy of 5 KGL, both from Ompteda's Bde, and 1 or 2 Coys of 1/2 Nassau withdrawn from Hougomont.
The farms and chateaus on the allied left were similarly garrisoned by companies of Nassau troops from Saxe-Weimar's Bde, and on the extreme allied left were vadettes of the 10th Hussars.
Given the game mechanics, as I have experienced them, none of these units would remain in place if their parent formation, which range completely across the battlefield from the allied left to the centre right and from which they have been detached, were given an order other than none. This seems odd given that the order is clearly not intended to affect these detached units.
It is not possible to replicate these situation by having whole units deployed in skirmish formation, that is not how skirmisher fought in any case. I cannot think why the split unit function is included except to provide this exact capability, e.g. to use light/rifle armed troops correctly and to deploy picquets or vadettes.
I wonder if someone from NSD could respond with their thinking on this?
Hougoumont, which at the commencement of the battle was garrisoned by:
• The light companies of the 2/2 and 2/3 foot guards, part of Byng's Bde of the 1st Div.
• Six companies of the 1/2 Nassau, part of Saxe-Weimar's Bde of the 2nd DB Div.
1 Coy in the Chateau, 2 in the gardens, 1 on the orchard and 2 in the wood.
• Also deployed in the wood were 100 men of the Han Feld Jager Korps and 50 men each from the Grubenhagen
and Luneberg Light Bns, all part of Kielmannsegge's Bde of 3rd Div.
Further light companies from the 2/1 and 3/1 foot guards, Maitland's Bde of the 1st Div, reinforced soon after the commencement of the French assault.
So there are elements of 4 different brigades deployed in defence of this position.
La Hay Saint was similarly garrisoned by various elements of different units detached for its defence.
• 6 companies of the 2 Lt Bn KGL; 1 deployed in the garden, two in the farm buildings and 3 in the orchard.
This Bn was part of Ompteda's Bde of the 3rd Div.
• To the east were 6 companies of 1/95, deployed in three groups; 2 in the sandpit, one lining the hedge
just to the north of the pit.
The garrison was later reinforced by 2 Coys of 1 Lt KGL, 1 Coy of 5 KGL, both from Ompteda's Bde, and 1 or 2 Coys of 1/2 Nassau withdrawn from Hougomont.
The farms and chateaus on the allied left were similarly garrisoned by companies of Nassau troops from Saxe-Weimar's Bde, and on the extreme allied left were vadettes of the 10th Hussars.
Given the game mechanics, as I have experienced them, none of these units would remain in place if their parent formation, which range completely across the battlefield from the allied left to the centre right and from which they have been detached, were given an order other than none. This seems odd given that the order is clearly not intended to affect these detached units.
It is not possible to replicate these situation by having whole units deployed in skirmish formation, that is not how skirmisher fought in any case. I cannot think why the split unit function is included except to provide this exact capability, e.g. to use light/rifle armed troops correctly and to deploy picquets or vadettes.
I wonder if someone from NSD could respond with their thinking on this?
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SirTurtleton
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- Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:45 pm
Re: Split Unit / Skirmisher recall when formation orders change
Hello, sorry to necro this old post but here is my experience with the issue mentioned.
I played on the Quatre Bras Allied brigade scenario where I had to defend the Bois de Bossu. The regiment given to me has 3 battalions and I split a formation of 50 skirmishers from one battalion (the 2nd battalion, irc), then TCed that skirmisher unit. The battalions I left for AI, the commander (Colonel von Spetch) had defend stance. During the battle, the 2nd and its detachment got partly surrounded, while morale was still high, they lost quite a lot of troops. Then suddenly the skirmish unit disappeared and I noticed that the Strength of the battalion increased. I conclude that either the skirmish unit broke and the remaining troops returned to their main unit or the main battalion recalled the skirmishers. The stance of the officer (von Specht) remained unchanged. I saved the game before the occurence and ran it several times. Results varied. Sometimes, the skirmishers retreated and remained split while the other times, it merged back into the main unit. I also tried to change the stance to hold to the last, same thing happened, even with reserve stance. Is there anyway to prevent this from happening?
I played on the Quatre Bras Allied brigade scenario where I had to defend the Bois de Bossu. The regiment given to me has 3 battalions and I split a formation of 50 skirmishers from one battalion (the 2nd battalion, irc), then TCed that skirmisher unit. The battalions I left for AI, the commander (Colonel von Spetch) had defend stance. During the battle, the 2nd and its detachment got partly surrounded, while morale was still high, they lost quite a lot of troops. Then suddenly the skirmish unit disappeared and I noticed that the Strength of the battalion increased. I conclude that either the skirmish unit broke and the remaining troops returned to their main unit or the main battalion recalled the skirmishers. The stance of the officer (von Specht) remained unchanged. I saved the game before the occurence and ran it several times. Results varied. Sometimes, the skirmishers retreated and remained split while the other times, it merged back into the main unit. I also tried to change the stance to hold to the last, same thing happened, even with reserve stance. Is there anyway to prevent this from happening?