There have been some disucussions of late, confusion, contrary views etc etc regarding the appearance of scouting with Obj holders and wagons... Namely, can anyone expect that all of us generals are !) capable of knowing where our wagons and holders are at any given moment; 2) if we are capable, will we be responsible enough to keep them controlled; 3 if capable, are we committed to the idea that they should not be used as scouts.... and how do we propose to relieve folks like Palmer, from constantly being a bad guy cop, always telling the same folks the same things about blind games and scouts.
This is not about moving officers etc ahead of troops.... even the poorest among us, at least recognize that we shold not be doing that. Of course there are those that take advantage of that as well, but lets not go there now. This is specifically regarding obj holders and wagons.... and more specifically, should they, or can they be left behind one's lines in a static position when not employed occupying objectives.
If we accept this as OK, they then become active scouts in the rear, preventing any unobserved attack from one's rear, or rear flank. I for one do not think that this is appropriate, but it has pointed out to me that from a proactical standpoint, there are a significant number of our community that either are not capable of controlling their holders and wagons to the degree it takes to keep them with their troops, or worse, will not comply even when they have the capability.
If we go with the "leave them behind" concept, What happens when you move off to the side, or tangential to your present earlier position.... then of course, these left behind units become flanking scouts protecting your flanks... again a even more egregious situation.
Conceptually, many of us agree that scouting should not be allowed by units that cannot take fire, however, what do we actually agree to, in a practical sense ? I fear that from what I have seen in the time that I have played, there are some among us that will not abide by some rules at any time, either by design, carelessness, inattention, or just by being irresponsible. Others, alas, might not have the mental capacity to either comprehend what is going on, or have the capability to control those extra pieces on the chess board... Do we ban these folks ? I think not... do we abandon, any pretense at trying to curb the practice ? I hope not...
I am being a whimp here.... I do not have the answer, I am not proposing one... other than to put forth a sincere desire to find some workable agreement that we can live and die by (sprites of course).
I wish at some point we at least had the capability to track where obj holders and wagons were during a battle on our replays. This at least would relieve us from the subjective banter of "I saw it here, when you were there", to the reply, "No I was here and it was there". without that we are at a bit of a loss.... can we believe anything that anyone here says ???? what to do... what to do...
Age old question... what to do with Obj Holders and Wagons ref scouting
Re: Age old question... what to do with Obj Holders and Wagons ref scouting
Thanks to MacLeod for starting this thread and soliciting input. This isn't one of those things that necessarily has right or wrong answers. To further the discussion, here is a bit of history and a few considerations:
While somewhat separate questions, the current limitations imposed on movement objective holders and wagons were born out of the 'blind' rules. These, as everyone knows, were designed to build more surprise into the game by making it less likely divisions would be discovered too early during approach and flank marches.
I agree with Robert that nobody these days really seems to dispute the need to limit forward scouting and scouting to the flank by non-combatants. The latest question comes from the other direction: What are our expectations for discovering what may lurk to the rear?
The two competing schools of thought (both of which have merit IMO) are:
1) Territory to a division's rear (i.e., area it began in or passed through), is now 'friendly' and therefore it is reasonable to assume has more eyes & ears present to detect enemy presence;
2) If divisions are allowed to trail wagons and holders behind them, then it necessarily becomes very difficult for an opponent to maneuver unseen in the rear, limiting the possibility for surprise we value to the front with the Blind Rule restrictions. A corollary to this view has been suggested that players should have responsibility to move their objective holders and wagons to either a) accompany the division closely on the march, or b) station them at some friendly-owned VP.
These seem the prominent competing ideas for now. There might be others. My suggestion is that the player community discuss & choose/vote between these two general concepts (or come up with additional ideas). Once a consensus is achieved, we can craft a set of expectations for players to abide by in our battles.
A final (no doubt obvious) note: Anything we come up with really needs to be simple, workable, and easy for players to comply with. A good solution should minimize ambiguity, reduce disputes and avoid acrimony -- all of which seriously detract from our fun!
While somewhat separate questions, the current limitations imposed on movement objective holders and wagons were born out of the 'blind' rules. These, as everyone knows, were designed to build more surprise into the game by making it less likely divisions would be discovered too early during approach and flank marches.
I agree with Robert that nobody these days really seems to dispute the need to limit forward scouting and scouting to the flank by non-combatants. The latest question comes from the other direction: What are our expectations for discovering what may lurk to the rear?
The two competing schools of thought (both of which have merit IMO) are:
1) Territory to a division's rear (i.e., area it began in or passed through), is now 'friendly' and therefore it is reasonable to assume has more eyes & ears present to detect enemy presence;
2) If divisions are allowed to trail wagons and holders behind them, then it necessarily becomes very difficult for an opponent to maneuver unseen in the rear, limiting the possibility for surprise we value to the front with the Blind Rule restrictions. A corollary to this view has been suggested that players should have responsibility to move their objective holders and wagons to either a) accompany the division closely on the march, or b) station them at some friendly-owned VP.
These seem the prominent competing ideas for now. There might be others. My suggestion is that the player community discuss & choose/vote between these two general concepts (or come up with additional ideas). Once a consensus is achieved, we can craft a set of expectations for players to abide by in our battles.
A final (no doubt obvious) note: Anything we come up with really needs to be simple, workable, and easy for players to comply with. A good solution should minimize ambiguity, reduce disputes and avoid acrimony -- all of which seriously detract from our fun!
Last edited by exp101 on Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Age old question... what to do with Obj Holders and Wagons ref scouting
option 1 please. thats the way i've played since the inception of the rule and makes the most historical sense ,but i'm biased, i wish our games and the way we play was more historical.
I understand the other option, but i do not agree with it. So saith an overly cautious player.
I understand the other option, but i do not agree with it. So saith an overly cautious player.
Re: Age old question... what to do with Obj Holders and Wagons ref scouting
I tend to have my holders trail my troops by whatever increment I am moving my Division.
My holders are normally given a order to advance to within about 500 yards to the rear of my
achieved waypoint.
When I advance to another position they are tasked to stay behind the troops about 500 yards.
When I hit combat they may be pulled back farther depending on the situation.
In the case of a broken line or disaster situation all bets are off as they are moving to a safe place.
A possible solution to "laggers or side road guards" would be when they are spotted/spot the enemy
in a problematic way they are to be considered captured and have to be either left in place to be captured or they are automatically forfeit and have to move to map edge with a possible point penalty.
but as always there are different skill levels playing every game and asking everyone to be as proficient with troops and movements is asking a lot.
If this continues to be a issue just drop the objective holders keep the ammo wagons(for resupply)
and slash the amount of objectives to hold.
Ultimately some will always stretch the rule.
Also I have certainly been guilty of "completely forgetting about them till I need them to hold an objective or resupply troops"
My holders are normally given a order to advance to within about 500 yards to the rear of my
achieved waypoint.
When I advance to another position they are tasked to stay behind the troops about 500 yards.
When I hit combat they may be pulled back farther depending on the situation.
In the case of a broken line or disaster situation all bets are off as they are moving to a safe place.
A possible solution to "laggers or side road guards" would be when they are spotted/spot the enemy
in a problematic way they are to be considered captured and have to be either left in place to be captured or they are automatically forfeit and have to move to map edge with a possible point penalty.
but as always there are different skill levels playing every game and asking everyone to be as proficient with troops and movements is asking a lot.
If this continues to be a issue just drop the objective holders keep the ammo wagons(for resupply)
and slash the amount of objectives to hold.
Ultimately some will always stretch the rule.
Also I have certainly been guilty of "completely forgetting about them till I need them to hold an objective or resupply troops"
Last edited by kg_sspoom on Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Age old question... what to do with Obj Holders and Wagons ref scouting
It's hard to expect players to keep their wagons and objective holders right behind their division. As long as they (objective holders and wagons) are not used to protect a players flanks from sneak attack, I'm fine.
The game the other day when MJP was complaining about Beef Stu's objective holder, there was another division moving down the same road as Beef, a few hundred yards behind him, so there's no real complaint to be had. It's very rare that a division gets completely around behind an enemy division.
The game the other day when MJP was complaining about Beef Stu's objective holder, there was another division moving down the same road as Beef, a few hundred yards behind him, so there's no real complaint to be had. It's very rare that a division gets completely around behind an enemy division.