Automatic Formation Change to Column

[NY Cavalry]

Lets stop the silliness and think this thing through.

We can tell from the civil war that when units were close to the enemy they were deployed in lines. As an example lets look at Pickett's Charge. They moved in lines. Why? Because they were expecting to make contact with the enemy. To move from column to line was not an instantaneous motion. It took time. Moving from column to line while taking fire would have been almost impossible if not possible altogether. How do you deploy 2 divisions from column into lines within 1000 yards of the enemy? How much time does it take to deploy a regiment from column to line? Then think about what it takes to deploy a division into lines? These things cannot be done on the march. These things cannot be done while taking fire(inside 1000 yards from the enemy). Attacking is a challenge because you are trying to bring your force into concert against an enemy position. So many things can go wrong, especially with timing. Who thinks that a division or two can be transferred from column to line perfectly while under fire and then able to advance as a cohesive unit against an objective?

Yes, artillery is deadly. Again, just look at Pickett's charge. Read the accounts they are readily available.

[General P R Cleburne]

The question has already been long ago answered i think.
There are some mods that work around this problem.They do a decent job.
The idea of having to have served in the military and provide a discharge date, to qualify in order to make an observation from a historical POV seems a bit ludicrous to me also....no comment.

[Jonah]

I think we need to place this into a hypothetical scenario.

The rebs are in line 300 yards across an open field around a bend in the road they know the union are coming, they have a battery of artillery for support further back.

The Union troops are marching to a town down the road believed to be held by the rebs and are marching road column for speed because their orders say as fast as humanly possible where they are to attack and drive the rebs out of the town. Now as the union commander which would you do considering the town is 4 miles from your start position?

So the vanguard regiment of the union column turns the corner in column sights the rebs and immediately comes under artillery fire any commander in his right mind would order the regiment to change into line ala what the game does .

What happens then to the next regiment in the column marching down the road remembering the noise and confusion assuming they have had sufficient training I would expect them to deploy behind the first regiment with a view to extending that regiments line of battle so on and so forth. All the time this extended battle line is coming under increasing fire the only thing to do is advance or retreat. The
question there how cautious are you are you little mac or Grant.

What I am trying to depict is you cannot expect a game to depict what you or the general's at the time would Have done accurately enough ingame you can get it close by having a set of ingame variables and commands that the AI follows which as Cleburne points out have been amended in various mods to be a little more realistic.

[klightfoot]

I am hoping you are correct and the modules fix the worst of this but I am not far enough along to do that type test. I have to evaluate the game first in its base configuration and then see what the changes do. Right now my review says it occurs and is ahistoric but may not be a problem in actual combat. A lot depends on how the AI handles things like artillery fire and target formation modifiers and how the AI's colonel reacts to being fired on.

As a professional programmer I don't quite see why the game designers put this into the game. Simply leaving it to the player to set the formation he wants would have solved it nicely rather than having the AI change the commands. The player could decide what the best formation was for getting from here to there. I don't even think it speeds up movement since I see little change in the speed the troops advance when in column versus line when not on a road. Certainly not enough difference to make up for the rather long time it takes to go into and out of column.

However, sometimes these things are the result of unintended decisions by the AI. What made sense to the AI in some situations made no sense in others.

[Jonah]

I believe what you are seeing is a missmash of the ai control factor and the human involvement with in the game. I you the player leave your ai colonel to run your brigades you will see may weird and wonderfully goings onas the ai tales control after you have givan an order unless you actually tc'ed your ai colonel he will counter your order and issue his own. Ultimately many of the experienced mp players will tell you they tc their regiments very early on to avoid the ai taking control and countering your orders

[Garnier]

@klightfoot

The formation movement speed bonus occurs immediately when the regiment is ordered to change formation. So regardless of where you're going, if you spend any of that time "nominally" in column, your flag will get there faster. In the base game, column is 20% faster than line. If you want max speed, you'll use the skirmish formation which is 30% faster. (mods change these speed differences as well)

@Jonah
This doesn't have to do with TC. In the base game, regiments change to their march formation (column) whenever they're ordered to move a certain minimum distance. They do this whether TCed or not.

But again, mods can change this so your units stay in the formation you give -- and most anyone who is interested in a better game will be using mods.

[RebBugler]

I am hoping you are correct and the modules fix the worst of this but I am not far enough along to do that type test. I have to evaluate the game first in its base configuration and then see what the changes do. Right now my review says it occurs and is ahistoric but may not be a problem in actual combat. A lot depends on how the AI handles things like artillery fire and target formation modifiers and how the AI's colonel reacts to being fired on.

As a professional programmer I don't quite see why the game designers put this into the game. Simply leaving it to the player to set the formation he wants would have solved it nicely rather than having the AI change the commands. The player could decide what the best formation was for getting from here to there. I don't even think it speeds up movement since I see little change in the speed the troops advance when in column versus line when not on a road. Certainly not enough difference to make up for the rather long time it takes to go into and out of column.

However, sometimes these things are the result of unintended decisions by the AI. What made sense to the AI in some situations made no sense in others.

Very astute observances here with good points made, although you are in error with one point, column movement is indeed faster than lines.

I was a tester during the making of our first release, Gettysburg. Shortly after that release I rose to the status of designer, primarily for my modding endeavors. At this point in time I was able to convince the necessity of line hold formations which were incorporated into the Drills.csv (formations). However, these hold line formations are not recognized by the AI, as it was designed before my input. The only way hold lines work at present are with mods, and they are quite effective. Unfortunately, they will only hold while the officer is TC'd, once TC comes off, the default lines will kick in upon the AI officer's commands.

You have made valid points of the necessity of holding line formations when approaching enemy engagement, or while under artillery fire. However, there are no easy solutions here. If in the event we are able to incorporate Line Hold commands for the AI, at what point are they superior to column movements? Column movements reduce the time under fire, but take longer to set up for engagement with infantry, whereas line movements take less damage from artillery, but expose the troops longer, although they are indeed sounder when infantry engagement is reached.

Still, these are good points to be considered as we build our next engine, due sometime in 2013. In the meantime, please tolerate a little micromanaging for better battlefield control, with the help of mods, built specifically for many of the very valid points you have made.

Thank You Sir

[klightfoot]

I hope you don't mind my copying your reply over to the ACWGC forum.

I did check with the tutorial regiment and they do march faster. 3.31 min for a line to change to column, cross the open field and change back. 4.10 min for a line to make the move without changing. This appears to be possible because there is no movement penalty for the column to change to line. I couldn't tell if it required extra time to change from line to column. Don't agree with it as a simulation but if it works within the game without causing a disaster that would force micro management it can be lived with. It would just be somewhat disconcerting to watch Pickett's charge in columns instead of lines.

[RebBugler]

I hope you don't mind my copying your reply over to the ACWGC forum.

I did check with the tutorial regiment and they do march faster. 3.31 sec for a line to change to column, cross the open field and change back. 4.10 sec for a line to make the move without changing. This appears to be possible because there is no movement penalty for the column to change to line. I couldn't tell if it required extra time to change from line to column. Don't agree with it as a simulation but if it works within the game without causing a disaster that would force micro management it can be lived with. It would just be somewhat disconcerting to watch Pickett's charge in columns instead of lines.

Regarding your first line, I see no problems, unless it is prefaced in, OUCH, negative light.

Pickett's charge, behold, in my B&F mod, scripted with Hold Lines all the way across up to infantry engagement. Of course then, with 'evtfighting TC Off', the default lines kick in.

[klightfoot]

We try to be positive. We are always looking for ways to expand the ACWGC into other games. Our mainstay has been Talonsoft and now HPS/Matrix games because they work so well for email play. We have aready added Strategic games like AGEOD's and Forge of Freedom. Even with flaws I suspect SoW will make a better tactical showing than a hex based game. There are problems to overcome. SoW isn't an easy game to set up for head to head play. And, of course there have to be enough people owning the game in the club to make it worth adding to our supported list. My review should spark some interest. Just have to wait and see how much.