Canister Reaction, Artillery Improvements Request

[RebBugler]

I remember when you used to pop into the gamespy user chat lobby we used back then for SMG campaigns.
Pr keen and Adam Bryant in the same chat one night just before CWBR was due to release, for a good while talking to us avid listeners about the new software MMG was due to release.They were great times looking back.
Now that long old wait is well past us and look what we have

I'm at a loss, I never got involved with the SMG campaigns or forum, maybe asked a few questions, but that's all I recall. Maybe it's all things coming back to haunt me that I experimented with in my youth. :silly:

[Jonah]

I wasn't asking for actual FOW on my computer screen, but historical FOW is one reason why in wargames we need to set weapon effectiveness and ranges far lower than their paper ranges or effects might suggest because in the black powder era often very little could be seen.

A rifle musket capable of hitting a man at 250 yards is useless if you can't see more than 90 yards.

Really i would never have guessed but in all reality it would not have stopped regiments from shooting there are many recorded incidents of there being no wind to blow the smoke of battle away. Instead of aiming for the man the experienced officers and NCO's would just change the target that the regiments would shoot at from the man to the muzzle flash hey presto we are firing again and just as accurately maybe a little more off target but the result would have been the same for the opposing side.

[Willard]

Why all the hate for the MP players?

Seriously, the MP players really are your BETA team in testing/breaking/suggesting fixes for game balance. Playing against scripted AI is not a challenge despite the best efforts of any game designer.

The core group of MP players have identified alot of fixes/tweaks/exploits that never come up because the AI cannot efficiently maximize the ability/stretch the limits of the game engine.

Just because the core committed MP players are vocal in their suggestions does not mean these legitimate gripes should be marginalized nor that this is disloyal dissent. We all basically want the same thing: the best CW game out there. There will always need to be concessions between gameplay balance and historical simulation - no one wants to march around a virtual battlefield for 5 realtime hours before getting into battle. Similarly, we are all willing to except that the action needs to be scaled in time and scope to accomodate the abilities of even the strongest processors.

That being said, much of the constructive criticism is made with the hope that all of us can contribute to the maximization of the game engine to provide the best gaming experience possible. If the goal of the NSD team is to maximize the engine for SP game balance, than that is fine. Just open up the files and give us in the MP world the ability to tweak the engine to fix those issues that greatly impact MP play. Our opinions shouldn't be marginalized because we like MP play. Ultimately the success or failure of SOW hinges on the customer - just because the MP group isn't as large as the SP group doesn't mean that our concerns shouldn't be heard. I have been a loyal customer owning CWBR, TC2M, SOW-Gettysburg, Pipe Creek and Antietam.

[Michael Slaunwhite]

Your spot on there Willard. If it wasn't for the MP players the NSD team would not have brought about the final fixes that has made SOW's MP a more stable unit. Personally MP is just as important as Single Player, and your voices are heard that I am sure of.

I am very sure that NSD will allow you to fully mod MP in the future. You have to think how hard it must be for Norb to be the only one coding, and it's a bloody miracle at all that Norb, and the team has pulled off something this fantastic is hard to really comprehend.

From what has been posted concerning their list, I have it in my head that it must be around 2 miles long (lets hope it's not written on toilet tissue) if not more, and NSD has proven themselves that they are not people who make their choices of what goes in the game, and what is not to go in at that moment on the fly, the team takes what they do very seriously, and they really beat the dung beetle to death before a final decision is made.

Everything takes time, and I know the wait will eventually be well worth it in the end, then you can mod to your hearts content.

[General P R Cleburne]

I remember when you used to pop into the gamespy user chat lobby we used back then for SMG campaigns.
Pr keen and Adam Bryant in the same chat one night just before CWBR was due to release, for a good while talking to us avid listeners about the new software MMG was due to release.They were great times looking back.
Now that long old wait is well past us and look what we have

I'm at a loss, I never got involved with the SMG campaigns or forum, maybe asked a few questions, but that's all I recall. Maybe it's all things coming back to haunt me that I experimented with in my youth. :silly:

I don't recall you being involved at all Reb.
I do however remember the questions .Does seem a long time ago now though.
Most of the SMG campaigners were more interested in what you guys had to say than their campaign briefings that's for sure. :laugh:

[RebBugler]

OK Willard, you've got noble intentions here, but you need to stick to Artillery stats, and not defend something that's out of your expertise.

You say basically that MP has helped develop the game engine with their feedback, maybe you know some, but I can't think of any offhand. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just honestly don't recall.

However, I do know some that's it hurt, and here's one:

When SOWGB was released, the early early days, I went into the lobby and hooked up with four guys for a game. They had chosen a scenario already, division level, 4 brigades for each side. They were going to play co-op as the Yank division and I volunteered to take them on with the Reb division. I really thought I was going to get my butt kicked by going against these guys, I had no aspirations of winning, just wanted to play and get feedback for the team.

So, fired it up and off we went to war. First thing I did was set up a good defensive, TC'd my less experienced officers and let my best officer to do his thing, gave him hold orders. Then they came at me, firing lines set up. Then I starting moving up batteries between my TC'd lines at 180 yards and started pumping canister at them. Of course, they did the obvious, we all learned from TC2M well, they column charged my batteries. But not all at once, my savior. Then, after the first column charge reached my guns I hit retreat, heh heh heh. The poor 'beat up from canister' regiment stopped dead in it's tracks, my guns got away without losing a man, and my supporting flank regiments routed it. I did this several more times, same results. These guys were green to MP, heck, we were all green back then with MP play, and of course, they didn't coordinate their efforts. They did get better as the battle continued, but I had already routed 4 or 5 regiments, giving me the upper hand and about 500 points or so ahead, still I was flying all the place keeping my defensive stable. It was great fun for me, outnumberd 4 to 1, I kicked butt and won the game.

The next day at the forum the squeaks and squawks began, and ironically, by the column charge folks. OHHHH, the moans rang out, "how unfair, the retreat is so unrealistic, how can guns escape so easily...BOO HOO HOO. Eventually the BOO HOO chatter became more civil, "shouldn't batteries be able to be captured as they limber? That's historic, you must change the game here, you call yourselves historic game makers, this retreat and save your guns command is unfair and ahistoric"...the negative chatter went on and on...squeaking and squawking, pounding us with negative PR.

So alas, we complied.

Norb starting recoding this area, made the guns able to be captured while limbering. Took us at least a month to test it out, MP testing take note, and released I believe the first patch with this so called fix included.

Released the patch, it sated the column charge faithful, but guess what, then the anti column charge folks started up, OHHHH, now I can't save my batteries, they're useless for canister, BOO HOO HOO. Then we did another fix, can't charge in column, more BOO HOOs from the column charge people.

These are only two examples, the list continues of fixes we've made sating folks preferences, MP FOLKS.

And you know what, this first fix has screwed up this specific part of SP play. Now, AI batteries are basically sitting ducks for capture. If you remember back before this fix, a narrow window from release, but it was there, and AI batteries were difficult to capture, as they should be. When you charged an AI battery, the AI battery commander responded with retreat, and he saved his guns. NOT NOW, the capture while limbering fix killed this. Now, AI batteries are super vulnerable, easy to capture, just go down the line and pick them off. The form line requirement barely slows down picking off batteries...makes me sick.

This has really messed with scenario design, I want my AI batteries strong and doing their thing. I can save them once with the evtdisttarg, 150, Retreat...but that's it, after they've used up that command once, they're sitting ducks once in their new location.

Now, Norb is aware of this and it has been addressed whereas batteries that don't have a regiment nearby will retreat automatically, but this doesn't work near as well as the original design, before MP squawks changed it. Also, regiments next to them really hinders them with this fix, because the regiment usually doesn't help save the battery.

Well, there you have it, an hour out of my life that I'll never get back, because I needed to make this one point of the negative impact MP play has made on SOW SP play. Folks that make a stand that MP play is nothing but roses for the SP side need to know the facts, and not blow their ignorant horn.

And folks, this is just ONE example, there are many more. But don't get me wrong, I am 100 per cent for MP play inclusion for SOW. Yes, it is a pain to sate the audience, but it's all for one game, and one SOW team for all.

[Beef Stu]

Then we did another fix, can't charge in column, more BOO HOOs from the column charge people.

where and when was this fix made? i know they added auto melee so you couldn't run through enemy units but other then that you can still pile 30,000 troops into column and send them all to the one small spot in the enemy line and roll it.

if this is the fix your talking about then are you saying it was cool to run columns through enemy lines? This is not an argument just trying to clear the facts.

[RebBugler]

You can't charge in column, but to override the fix you just hit the line form button, then immediately charge. So, the can't charge in column fix is only a slight delay before charge is allowed. IOW, not very effective at all. Batteries are still basically sitting ducks.

[RebBugler]

To add to my report...

The big ironic twist to this story is the column charge thing. The single most gripe among the MP'ers these days are their hatred and disrespect for the folks that column charge batteries. If the game had just been left alone in the beginning, the column charge would have been deemed useless because folks could simply save their batteries by hitting the Retreat button, leaving the column charging regiments ragged from multiple canister blows.

Column charge tactics would have simply died out once they proved useless.

[Jonah]

OK Willard, you've got noble intentions here, but you need to stick to Artillery stats, and not defend something that's out of your expertise.

You say basically that MP has helped develop the game engine with their feedback, maybe you know some, but I can't think of any offhand. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just honestly don't recall.

However, I do know some that's it hurt, and here's one:

When SOWGB was released, the early early days, I went into the lobby and hooked up with four guys for a game. They had chosen a scenario already, division level, 4 brigades for each side. They were going to play co-op as the Yank division and I volunteered to take them on with the Reb division. I really thought I was going to get my butt kicked by going against these guys, I had no aspirations of winning, just wanted to play and get feedback for the team.

So, fired it up and off we went to war. First thing I did was set up a good defensive, TC'd my less experienced officers and let my best officer to do his thing, gave him hold orders. Then they came at me, firing lines set up. Then I starting moving up batteries between my TC'd lines at 180 yards and started pumping canister at them. Of course, they did the obvious, we all learned from TC2M well, they column charged my batteries. But not all at once, my savior. Then, after the first column charge reached my guns I hit retreat, heh heh heh. The poor 'beat up from canister' regiment stopped dead in it's tracks, my guns got away without losing a man, and my supporting flank regiments routed it. I did this several more times, same results. These guys were green to MP, heck, we were all green back then with MP play, and of course, they didn't coordinate their efforts. They did get better as the battle continued, but I had already routed 4 or 5 regiments, giving me the upper hand and about 500 points or so ahead, still I was flying all the place keeping my defensive stable. It was great fun for me, outnumberd 4 to 1, I kicked butt and won the game.

The next day at the forum the squeaks and squawks began, and ironically, by the column charge folks. OHHHH, the moans rang out, "how unfair, the retreat is so unrealistic, how can guns escape so easily...BOO HOO HOO. Eventually the BOO HOO chatter became more civil, "shouldn't batteries be able to be captured as they limber? That's historic, you must change the game here, you call yourselves historic game makers, this retreat and save your guns command is unfair and ahistoric"...the negative chatter went on and on...squeaking and squawking, pounding us with negative PR.

So alas, we complied.

Norb starting recoding this area, made the guns able to be captured while limbering. Took us at least a month to test it out, MP testing take note, and released I believe the first patch with this so called fix included.

Released the patch, it sated the column charge faithful, but guess what, then the anti column charge folks started up, OHHHH, now I can't save my batteries, they're useless for canister, BOO HOO HOO. Then we did another fix, can't charge in column, more BOO HOOs from the column charge people.

These are only two examples, the list continues of fixes we've made sating folks preferences, MP FOLKS.

And you know what, this first fix has screwed up this specific part of SP play. Now, AI batteries are basically sitting ducks for capture. If you remember back before this fix, a narrow window from release, but it was there, and AI batteries were difficult to capture, as they should be. When you charged an AI battery, the AI battery commander responded with retreat, and he saved his guns. NOT NOW, the capture while limbering fix killed this. Now, AI batteries are super vulnerable, easy to capture, just go down the line and pick them off. The form line requirement barely slows down picking off batteries...makes me sick.

This has really messed with scenario design, I want my AI batteries strong and doing their thing. I can save them once with the evtdisttarg, 150, Retreat...but that's it, after they've used up that command once, they're sitting ducks once in their new location.

Now, Norb is aware of this and it has been addressed whereas batteries that don't have a regiment nearby will retreat automatically, but this doesn't work near as well as the original design, before MP squawks changed it. Also, regiments next to them really hinders them with this fix, because the regiment usually doesn't help save the battery.

Well, there you have it, an hour out of my life that I'll never get back, because I needed to make this one point of the negative impact MP play has made on SOW SP play. Folks that make a stand that MP play is nothing but roses for the SP side need to know the facts, and not blow their ignorant horn.

And folks, this is just ONE example, there are many more. But don't get me wrong, I am 100 per cent for MP play inclusion for SOW. Yes, it is a pain to sate the audience, but it's all for one game, and one SOW team for all.

Reb this all helps the MP community to see what really goes on behind the scenes I have tested several games in Beta now notably Pirates of the Burning Seas, Battlefield 3 and an upcoming release and every time i read those forums i see people complaining this is unrealistic or that's unrealistic. Sadly and this is what most players forget the game has to be playable ala not so totally bulked out with calculations to do that it lags out so compromises are made often to the detriment of the MP game experience.