Did Lincoln Start the Civil War?

[Braxton Bragg]

Well look at his handle ---> Marching thru Georgia
Says it all really another die hard Bille yank :whistle:

Braxton Bragg

[Armchair General]

One of the great myths of the Civil War is that it was the only way to stop slavery. How many other nations fought a war to end Slavery. Only the United States. Slavery would have died out anyway. It is more economical to pay low wages to workers than pay for their upkeep.


Slavery could have been ended just as it was in Brazil; i.e. use a several methods at the same time. Brazil did have many more slaves than the South ever had.


Burymeonthefield

That argument doesn't hold water when you look at the Confederacy's wishes and desires to create a slave empire stretching from the mainland south to Cuba, and down into South America, Brazil included. They had no intention of getting rid of slavery.

[Hancock the Superb]

In my opinion, the war is not over slavery. It isn't even over state's rights. It is over money. Who profits if there are high tarrifs? The industrial north! So the north, with more people, can pass laws through congress (remember the addition of Kansas as a free state offset the balance of power in the Senate) that keep out foreign goods, promoting the north's buisness. Who profits from low tarrifs? The South says, you are not going to make our goods more expensive to ship in and out of the US. So they make a big row about the Tarrifs of Abomination in Andy Jackson's presidency, then raise the cry of state's rights (to make the states responsible for their own tarrifs) in the 1850's and 60's.

The Confederates know that Lincoln is not going to allow slavery to expand, thus decreasing the South's influence in Senate (remember that Lincoln did not want to end slavery when he was elected, and that the west does not benefit from the lack of tarrifs, so the South wants the expansion of slavery as a bonding force, keeping the slave owners united against the North; in fact, slavery was likely not even economically feasible in Kansas, the south just needed the support of another slave state for Senate control). So the South has no chance to get rid of the tarrifs. So they secede, which gives the North the advantage they want to produce laws that further enhance the industrialization of the US (no southerners rejecting the bills!).

I'm sure that the wrecked South after the war was furious to know that not only had they failed to keep their way of life (slavery), but they had only made their economic situation worse by seceding! Thus the South does not prosper like the North does after the Civil War: they don't have industrialization, they have agriculture.

My THREE cents worth. B)

[burymeonthefield]

The Grandiose Plans of some of the important leaders was not the mainstream view. States such as Virginia and North Carolina were depending less on slave labor every year. Robert E. Lee was against slavery and his voice would have carried a great deal of weight. Moreover the Confederate Constitution did not allow for new slaves to be brought into the Country, hence reproduction was the only means to increase the amount of slaves. There would have not been enough slaves for an empire.

Was it possible that England would have intervened if the South did not have an Emancipation plan? Such is unlikely.

Economies of scale were not such that slavery would have been feasible for very long. With World Opinion against them, there would have been tremendous pressure on the Confederacy to end slavery.

We must always bear in mind that Slavery was a terrible and unethical practice. But also was the way blacks were treated after Federal troops left in 1876.

Trivial Fact: The man with horrible scarring on his back used in many presentation on Slaver does not indicate that he was beaten multiple times. The man had Keloid scares. One beating would have been sufficient to cause all the scars. Still one beating was too many.

Burymeonthefield

[Braxton Bragg]

That argument doesn't hold water when you look at the Confederacy's wishes and desires to create a slave empire stretching from the mainland south to Cuba, and down into South America, Brazil included. They had no intention of getting rid of slavery

And more Rubbish!!

Braxton Bragg

[RebBugler]

No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig. The war was a fight of good vs evil. Good won.

Now there's a straight forward, down to pig-sloppin' earth, honest Yankee declaration. No gray areas, we Rebels understand it completely.

Of course, contrarily, we saw the greatest evil manifested from that horrific war as Sherman's March to the Sea...

[Marching Thru Georgia]

RebBugler wrote:

Of course, contrarily, we saw the greatest evil manifested from that horrific war as Sherman's March to the Sea...

Nah. Sherman was a pussycat. He handled the south with kit gloves. For real rape, pillage and plunder, read an account of the Thirty Years War. That was a true war against the civilian population.

[JC Edwards]

No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig. The war was a fight of good vs evil. Good won.

Really.

I find it amusing when someone points out that the "good side" won. Yet, there was just as much rampant dislike for and racism towards Negroes in the North as the South.

Let's not forget that SLAVERY, at that time in AMERICAN History, was protected by THE UNITED STATES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Yes! (Now that you've got me started) The Same Federal Government that, starting years before and at this time (all the while boasting that they were fighting to FREE A PEOPLE) and for many years to come, was taking by force and domination, all Tribal lands of Native American Indians........yet of course, all in the name of progress and civility.

So to make the statement that "good" (The North), triumphed over "evil" (The South) is a blatant contradiction and filled with more holes than a block of Swiss Cheese.

Oh, and I've stated before and I will once again here and now so that there is no gray area (no pun intended) that I do NOT condone slavery in any form.
No one...NO HUMAN BEING...., man, woman, ....white, black, brown, red.....pink with purple poka-dots....has the right to own another human being......regardless of gender and/or ethnicity.

regards

Sarge

[Braxton Bragg]

Very well put Sarge Fancy that! A Northern people supporting slavery the very idea!
And being anti black as well outragous!!
As for Sherman.... well how brave of him to march against Georgia....lemme see.... oh yeah! he was opposed
by women and children

What a Fine General, Officer & Gentleman.
I understand there is still Racism in the North you know....the home of Emancipation :whistle:

Braxton Bragg

[Marching Thru Georgia]

burymeonthefield wrote:

Robert E. Lee was against slavery and his voice would have carried a great deal of weight.

I just love southern revisionism. :laugh:
My name is Wesley Norris; I was born a slave on the plantation of George Parke Custis; after the death of Mr. Custis, Gen. Lee, who had been made executor of the estate, assumed control of the slaves, in number about seventy; it was the general impression among the slaves of Mr. Custis that on his death they should be forever free; in fact this statement had been made to them by Mr. C. years before; at his death we were informed by Gen. Lee that by the conditions of the will we must remain slaves for five years; I remained with Gen. Lee for about seventeen months, when my sister Mary, a cousin of ours, and I determined to run away, which we did in the year 1859; we had already reached Westminster, in Maryland, on our way to the North, when we were apprehended and thrown into prison, and Gen. Lee notified of our arrest; we remained in prison fifteen days, when we were sent back to Arlington; we were immediately taken before Gen. Lee, who demanded the reason why we ran away; we frankly told him that we considered ourselves free; he then told us he would teach us a lesson we never would forget; he then ordered us to the barn, where, in his presence, we were tied firmly to posts by a Mr. Gwin, our overseer, who was ordered by Gen. Lee to strip us to the waist and give us fifty lashes each, excepting my sister, who received but twenty; we were accordingly stripped to the skin by the overseer, who, however, had sufficient humanity to decline whipping us; accordingly Dick Williams, a county constable, was called in, who gave us the number of lashes ordered; Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to "lay it on well," an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done. After this my cousin and myself were sent to Hanover Court-House jail, my sister being sent to Richmond to an agent to be hired; we remained in jail about a week, when we were sent to Nelson county, where we were hired out by Gen. Lee’s agent to work on the Orange and Alexander railroad; we remained thus employed for about seven months, and were then sent to Alabama, and put to work on what is known as the Northeastern railroad; in January, 1863, we were sent to Richmond, from which place I finally made my escape through the rebel lines to freedom; I have nothing further to say; what I have stated is true in every particular, and I can at any time bring at least a dozen witnesses, both white and black, to substantiate my statements: I am at present employed by the Government; and am at work in the National Cemetary on Arlington Heights, where I can be found by those who desire further particulars; my sister referred to is at present employed by the French Minister at Washington, and will confirm my statement.

—Testimony of Wesley Norris (1866); reprinted in John W. Blassingame (ed.): Slave Testimony: Two Centuries of Letters, Speeches, and Interviews, and Autobiographies Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press (ISBN 0-8071-0273-3). 467-468.

JC Edwards wrote:

So to make the statement that "good" (The North), triumphed over "evil" (The South) is a blatant contradiction and filled with more holes than a block of Swiss Cheese.

So is slavery good or evil?