12th Corp Army of the Potomac

[NY Cavalry]

Was playing with the 12th corp and I have known for a long time the corp doesn't fight very well unless it is fighting defensively behind good terrain. I was wondering if this was deserved? Is the corp rated to low?

What about Lockwood and his brigade? The regiments are rated less than militia. I know that at the time of the battle that they were reassigned from Washington's defenses to the 12th corp. What happened to that brigade after the battle? Did they continue with the corp.

I thought there might be some AOP fan that would know a little more insight into this corp at the time of Gettysburg. I am going to do some reading up on them on the internet.

[Olszowy]

I have a lot of issues with attributes within the OOB showing various Union regiments and leaders as bungling buffoons. I agree that XII Corps is more than capable of conducting an attack. Don't waste your time arguing with others, do your own research, look at both sides comments, look at how long a fight lasted, look at how many engagements that regiment was in and make your own assessment. XII Corps at Chancellorsville fought hard and its guns brought Jackson to a halt. Actions of poor quality troops, hmm probably not. Look at XII Corps, a few months later at Chattanooga. They conducted a movement into enemy held territory, fought a defensive battle, then attacked Lookout Mountain and then were part of the drive across Missionary Ridge, all in a short time. If you have not read Shipwreck of Their Hopes is tries to give both sides view. Don't rely on one point of view or one source, that is why we get jacked up OOBS in many games.
I will give you an example as this is just not a XII Corps issue and probaby not jut a Union Army issue. In reality US III Corps units from Ward's Bde vic Devils Den fought for 2 hours before being withdrawn because they thought they were being relieved. 124th NY and 86NY were both long serving regiments since the start. 124th even conducted counterattacks(unwise ones) as did the 86th whcih was more successful. Read the unit histories from the Arkansas units facing the 124th and 86th. Yet in the OOB they are both rated poorly not only as non-veteran, but all attributes. According to the OOB they were stupid as stumps. This is not reality, this is to replicate the long held popular perception of III corps poor performance. There are some who will point to the movie Gettysburg and say "See they ran like rabbits."
Rank and file soldiers were very similiar between Union and Rebel formations. Some will say rebel leadership and morale was better, if so, why did XII Corps do so well at Chattanooga? Could it be that not all rebel infantry and cavalry were supermen? Anyway, there are no absolutes, come up with an OOB that will make you happy

[RebBugler]

Read the unit histories from the Arkansas units facing the 124th and 86th. Yet in the OOB they are both rated poorly not only as non-veteran, but all attributes.

I don't disagree with your other points, but I definitely agree with this one. Hopefully, the game will evolve these numbers with more research after input from folks like yourself, History buffs if you will. It's a lot of research to get things right, and, things get missed in the mind boggling data that's involved, plus the lack of info on the Reb side of things. Thanks for your knowledge.

[Jack ONeill]

I discovered, (happily), the combat abilities of the 3rd. Corps some time ago. Most people overlook it because of its' idiot commander, Sickles. Things change when YOU are in command of 3rd. Corps. Some really tough Yankees there. Its just the Regiments/Battalions are smaller. I use them regularly.

12th. Corps requires some patience but can be quite good. I use them also. I use Lockwood and his lads as a flanking manuver element, or as the advance guard when on the move to contact. They are good at forcing the enemy to deploy and can hold them up for quite a while so you can get the other 2 brigades formed and ready.

My ha'penny.

Jack

[Davinci]

Most people overlook it because of its' idiot commander, Sickles. Things change when YOU are in command of 3rd. Corps. Some really tough Yankees there. Its just the Regiments/Battalions are smaller. I use them regularly.

I really don’t understand how everyone thinks so bad about General Sickles , taking the matter into his own hands he decided to advance looking for a better fighting position.

This action inadvertently caused him to run smack into General Longstreet’s attack, and disrupt the confederate forces.

I really do not believe that Meade gave him specific instructions as to line up here, other-wise, why would Sickles have moved his command.

In my opinion his actions changed the course of the days fighting, which lead to the fighting on the third day, and the famous walk into history .

davinci

[Damned Black Hat]

I've noticed that a couple of Union regiments and commanders were really shortchanged as far as abilities go, but then again, nothing is perfect.

[rclark14]

Hi, it's open to debate- Army of Tennesee never had a good leader as Lee or Jackson. Personally, as I age in life I think the Southern cause was as noble a cause as any. And as a lot of southern sympathists say, had the south won we wouldn't have half the problems we have today. Very debatable. Long live the South !!!! CSA forever Southern Victory

[NY Cavalry]

The 3rd corp has some good units in it including the Excelsior Brigade. They even had the sharpshooters assigned to the 3rd corp.

Sickles wrecked his corp at Getty. He did change the battle and fought Longstreet further west, but what did the AOP get for it?. The most important position was LRT where he posted no troops and the only problem the rebels had getting to it was a few sharpshooter companies. LRT was eventually saved by 5th corp troops. Sickles put his corp on a line that was too long. He didn't have the troops to man the positions he took up. His corp did fight very well, but were too stretched to hold back the rebels. In trying to hold Sickles line other troops of the AOP were mauled.

[35th Georgia]

Sickles made the error of not following orders, which is a cardinal sin in the military. He paid for that with his reputation.There were many good fighting units that no one got to hear much about at the time or even now,except the area from which they came.Blue or gray,to me they were all heroic as a war is just not fought that way today. Some ran,some were frozen with fear and almost all were scared but did it anyway. One of the benefits of training is learning to act and not react.Alot of those boys didn't have much training,some none at all. Natural instinct is to run,and sometimes it's not guts that keep you from it,it's training.

[Jack ONeill]

D,

Meades' specific comment to Sickles is telling - Upon riding up tp Sickles and asking what he was doing with his troops, Sickles replied he was advancing to what appeared to be higher ground. Meades' caustic reply was yes, there was higher ground and if he (Sickles) kept going forward he would find higher ground away from the battlefield. At this point the Rebel lines appeared, advancing on Sickles position. Meade said to Sickles it was too late to return to his original position and he (Meade) would support him with all the troops he could find. Sickles original position was essentially the line south from Cemetery ridge, a stout position ending on, or just short of, LRT. The Rebs would have had to advance a further half mile or more under brutal Yankee cannon fire and completely observed by the Federal commanders.

Another Ha'Penny of thought.

Jack