Counter-battery fire effectiveness

[Willard]

All just some raw data on some testing I have done...

Test 1:

-As Union, Hunt's Artillery Corps.
-Kanasas Map
-Reb's AI defend

Union Guns ~ 36 12pd + 10 10pd + 40 3inch for a total of 86 guns
(FYI I left one of Hunt's reserve units with the 20 pd guns in the blocks and did not include them in testing).

Reb Guns ~ 21 12pd + 5 10 pd + 3 inch + 2 20pd for a total of 31 guns

Played for 85 minutes with all Union guns exclusively on CB fire.
It took me 8 minutes before the first Union guns got set up.
All timing is minutes of CB fire after that initial 8 minute set-up period:

--22 Minutes = 4 Yank + 63 Rebel casualties
--30 M = 14 Yank + 108 Rebs
--35 M = 17 Yank + 138 Rebs
--40 M = 18 Yank + 152 Rebs
--50 M = 23 Yank + 196 Rebs
--60 M = 23 Yank + 214 Rebs
--65 M = 25 Yank + 220 Rebs
--70 M = 25 Yank + 243 Rebs
--75 M = 25 Yank + 269 Rebs

It is important to remember that the Yanks basically had a 3-1 advantage in guns versus the rebs in this set-up so no one should get spun up about the results. This was not a suprising result especially at that gun ratio. I specifically used Kansas to take out any effects of elevation and defensive positions. It took 75 mins of CB fire at that 3-1 ratio to knock out 25 rebel guns (Yanks lost 2). For this test there was a couple of suprising and no so suprising things I found:

-3 Inch Guns are the King of CB fire and are absolute stone cold battery killers. In the past I used 3 inch guns exclusively on CB fire and if these test results hold up, I would recommend everyone do the same.

-10 Pd Guns remain a nice CB fire option. It looks like the 10 pd guns are still the jack-of-all-trade gun.

-12 Pd Guns, are worthless in CB fire, especially if they are a level 3 experience or lower. I am sure they are good in helping fatigue the rebel guns but in battle they would best served exclusively targeting infantry unless you have the luxury/time of using them in CB fire.

-500 Yards is the tipping point. If you roll up closer than 500 yards, your battery is going to get murdered very quickly. I was not exclusively targeting specific batteries (just using the target artillery button) but the 3 batteries that rolled up less than 500 yards were all dispatched in about 10 minutes of CB fire. The reb batteries that stayed outside the 500 yard range actually had some staying power and held their own suprisingly well.

-The 50-60 minute mark was the threshold (at the 3-1 gun advantage) where the Reb guns started routing at greater than 500 yards. Once they started to go, they went quickly as an increasing number of guns were able to pour it on.

[Willard]

FYI didn't get any Union guns, so decided to check on effectiveness of Reb guns targeting infantry.

Test 2:

-As Reb, Walton's Artillery Corps.
-Kansas Map
-Union AI defend

Reb Guns ~ 15 12lb + 4 12lb how + 1 10lb + 4 24lb How + 7 3inch + 2 20lb = 33 Total

Took me about 5+ minutes to set-up and start firing.
Kept this scenario up for 1 hour and inflicted 1314 Union casualties.
Almost all ranges were 500-900 yards.
No canister fired.

Some observations:

-Had a couple of batteries fire at regiment at 230 yards from a flank/rear position. Had a good 5 minutes of fire with zero results. Checked ammo type and the 12 lb guns were firing shrapnel. I switched all guns to solid and the regiment broke within 2 salvos.
-Flanking and rear fire are very devastating. Units out in the open even at 500+ yards will break quickly if hit with arty fire from enfilade or rear position. I am sure if they are engaged in fighting infantry they will break even more quickly.
-Reb guns can inflict some pain ~ I would strongly recommend switching all Reb guns to solid shot when targeting infantry. Shrapnel was an ok 2nd but shell was useless.
-12lb and 24lb howitzers are basically useless. I was only able to get some effectiveness out of them with shrapnel. Obviously these are pretty devastating with canister.
-3inch guns were suprising good equally with either solid or shrapnel.
-Didn't get any positive results with shell. Going to try again and also see if it works better in CB fire.

[KG_Soldier]

What are the experience levels of the guns you're using.

Guns are somewhat more effective in the GCM, but not a whole lot: probably because all guns are 3s or 4s.

[Willard]

Test 3:

-As Reb, Walton's Artillery Corps.
-Kansas Map
-Union AI defend

Reb Guns ~ 15 12lb + 4 12lb how + 1 10lb + 4 24lb How + 7 3inch + 2 20lb = 33 Total
Yank Guns ~ 6 12lb + 6 10lb + 8 3inch = 20 Total

Took me about 5+ minutes to set-up and start firing.
Almost all ranges were 500-900 yards.

--25 Minutes = 30 Yank + 43 Rebel casualties
--30 M = 30 Yank + 46 Rebs
--40 M = 36 Yank + 54 Rebs
--45 M = 39 Yank + 54 Rebs

Rebs lost 3 total guns and Yanks lost 2 total guns.
I couldn't go any further, because the Arty AI started freaking out.
Basically the just AI started limbering, moving a short way and then turn around and unlimbering again.
This is the 2nd time this has happened - I have both save games if someone is interested.
The only thing I could tell is that it appeared to happen when Arty AI gets overwhelmed by CB fire.
It was almost as if the AI couldn't figure out if it wanted to deploy under fire our not.

Some Observations:

-This was pretty even when you factor in the hard-coded Yank artillery advantage.
-The actual total of 33 Reb guns vs. 20 Yank guns was actually 25 Rebs vs. 20 Yanks. The 8 Reb howitzers are useless for CB and I would not recommend putting them on CB fire. Better to use them to anchor defensive positions and so they can give what little they can in targeting infantry at greater than 200 yards.

[Willard]

What are the experience levels of the guns you're using.

Guns are somewhat more effective in the GCM, but not a whole lot: probably because all guns are 3s or 4s.

OK, I specifically looked for this in the last test.
For both Rebs and the Yanks, over 90% of the CB fire inflicted casualties were caused by 1 battery on each side.

For the Rebs, it was a 3 inch battery where all the guns are rated 6.
For the Yanks, it was a 10 pd battery that was all rated 6.

The 4/5 rated guns chipped in a bit.
The guns rated 3 or less did nothing - even if they 3 inch or 10 pd guns, it didn't matter.

Now, from what I can tell, this only applies to CB fire.
During the infantry test, all the guns scored regardless of rating. Obviously the higher rated guns scored slightly higher, but the difference wasn't too extreme from what I recall.

I will need to check this out a bit more, but it appears right now that for CB fire the key is gun crews with a rating of 4 or higher.

One of the issues in the GCM games is going to be the decentralized distro of the guns. Most players just set the guns up initially and for the most part just leave them there. They set the guns up to support their division's efforts and there probably isn't much thought to looking at their deployment from a corps level operational perspective. From a defensive standpoint 1 or 2 batteries is almost but not quite enough to hold a position. Once you get to 3 or more, you can do it with minimal infantry support but that is going to require corps level cooperation - meaning 2 players are going to have to agree to mass their guns together.

This will affect CB fire because the most effective CB guns are those 3 inch guns. Players with those would have to target artillery but will be less likely to do so at their own expense. Meaning since they view those batteries as "theirs" they are less likely to use them to support the corps and will only use them to support their efforts. If artillery is assigned at corps level, then that player is free to designate batteries for CB fire. I used to do that all the time when we played the stock game - basically I would centrally set-up the 3inch batteries on CB fire and then move the 12 and 10 pd batteries to support whomever needed it. If the 10 pds weren't needed, I would keep them on CB fire in the intervening timeframe.

[Marching Thru Georgia]

Willard wrote:

Basically the just AI started limbering, moving a short way and then turn around and unlimbering again. This is the 2nd time this has happened - I have both save games if someone is interested.

That was probably due to the fact that the CB fire had destroyed all the ammo that gun had. When I was testing the new arty CB fire, I saw the same behavior. When I checked those guns, they had no usable ammo. They cannot be resupplied either because their ammo chests have been blown up. It's another way to put a gun out of action. A very nice feature.

Another way to greatly improve the behavior of the napoleons is to go into the artytables.csv and change the values labeled Adjusted to values that are closer to those labeled Calculated. Now the smoothbores can actually hit something smaller than a barn.

Those were very nice tests that you performed. The results are very similar to my results, i.e. CB fire is now quite effective when using solid shot.

In fact, solid shot is by far the most effective munition to use at ranges >= 400 yds for any target. The problem with shrapnel at those ranges is that the game engine does not really treat them at area effect weapons. They must score a direct hit on the target and have the fuse detonate. If they overshoot a little, there is no effect to either the target or any unit that might be directly behind.

Shell is virtually useless. As an area effect weapon that must score a direct hit and have the fuse detonate. But the game engine doesn't recognize that if the fuse fails to detonate, it is still a solid shot and can still create casualties.

[Jack ONeill]

Will,

So, what you're saying is the AI Battery Commanders were simulating Panic and Confusion on the battlefield. Excellent! Score one again for the Norb/Team!

Jack B)

[SouthernSteel]

Willard wrote:

Basically the just AI started limbering, moving a short way and then turn around and unlimbering again. This is the 2nd time this has happened - I have both save games if someone is interested.

That was probably due to the fact that the CB fire had destroyed all the ammo that gun had. When I was testing the new arty CB fire, I saw the same behavior. When I checked those guns, they had no usable ammo. They cannot be resupplied either because their ammo chests have been blown up. It's another way to put a gun out of action. A very nice feature.

I didn't realize that was possible. Any chance there will be an attendant animation so we have some idea if this occurs? Can wagons be similarly disabled? I know they can see enemy units, so I would assume they can be seen and thus perhaps targeted? I know that's really a pipe dream players are having from the movie Gettysburg, but if we had some indication that this happened and didn't have to stumble upon it when we arrow through a battery, I think that would be helpful.

As to the latter issues you mentioned, I assume there's no way to change the engine such as to allow an area-effect sort of shell? I'm fairly certain this has been brought up before but I've forgotten.

[Marching Thru Georgia]

Southern Steel wrote:

Any chance there will be an attendant animation so we have some idea if this occurs? Can wagons be similarly disabled?

A column of smoke rising from the ammo chest would be a great effect, but it's probably not included due to the already stout memory requirements of the game. The ammo wagons are heavily armored and impervious to 19th century weaponry.

I assume there's no way to change the engine such as to allow an area-effect sort of shell?

I'm sure it's just a matter of time and effort, things that Norb has a short supply of at the moment, due to trying to get this major upgrade out the door. We got the solid shot improvement which is very, very nice. The ball will not only create casualties in the regiment that was targeted, but also any regiments that are close behind. In testing I found that it will create casualties in 4 closely packed regiments.

Just change the loadout of the arty to solid and cannister and it becomes apparent why Napoleon called arty the queen of the battlefield.

[Willard]

That was probably due to the fact that the CB fire had destroyed all the ammo that gun had. When I was testing the new arty CB fire, I saw the same behavior. When I checked those guns, they had no usable ammo. They cannot be resupplied either because their ammo chests have been blown up. It's another way to put a gun out of action. A very nice feature.

I checked the save game file for both games that I experienced this in. I did not find any with ammo chests blown up but I did find some of mine. That is pretty cool!

However, there was one battery where all they had was 12 rds of canister, but they never went to resupply. The other batteries all had about 100+ rounds - it was almost as if they fired off about 10 rounds and then started limbering/unlimbering. There is a glitch there that needs to be looked at.