A bit of thinking

Let's talk about Gettysburg! Put your questions and comments here.
kellysheroes
Reactions:
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:04 pm

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by kellysheroes »

Games have to be made with the AVERAGE to LOW END computer setup in mind not what is top of the line or the few that can handle everything you throw at it.

I haven't noticed any arty issues as well and TC2M modeled the arty the same way (to capture you rushed it and when the servers routed they took the cannon with them if they had the time). I don't think all these miniscule changes the OP recommends are required or needed as the immersion is there regardless of a few niggles of reality not being there. Overall it's another great job by the Norbster and team. Anyone can sit and nitpick every flaw a game has or everything they would like to see in a game (we all do that) but there is no requirement here really except continue to tweak the AI and add more maps if you could NORB. ;)
BTW The Wargamer suks nowadays. :) They still talkin bout you Norb. Same ole fools and retards like Son of Montfort and Jarhead and most especially Gusington.
GShock
Reactions:
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:11 pm

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by GShock »

My personal opinion is that if Fifa 2009 is good but Fifa 2010 is not better, you will not sell much of Fifa 2011.

Some of the mentioned flaws have passed on from Tc2M to SoWGB... probably because a higher development priority was (justly) assigned to Multiplayer.

However, the point is that arty didn't work in Tc2M and doesn't work in SoWGB. I stopped playing Tc2M because I couldn't mod it to work (nobody could) and most certainly I will stop playing SoWGB for the same reason without such fix.

Have you tried playing Historical settings? Can you play them without being able to see where your units are going? Have you tried issuing strategic orders to generals you can't see?

I am not sure you are really into gaming, Kellys... I've been betatesting 5 games at the same time for the last 20 yrs and I am quite sure of what each game needs.

You may talk about a great job and indeed it is, considering the manpower committed onto it so I concur with you, else I wouldn't strive to help making it better but I remind you that with this second beta, not only I personally see 90% of the flaws of Tc2M but I am reduced to play in almost totally silent mode.

The only things I hear are horses galloping and cannons shooting (and hitting empty air) and that's not too good for a battlefield.

Your mentioned requirements are totally useless at the light of these major flaws.
GShock
Reactions:
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:11 pm

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by GShock »

Test moved to Rodes' division, Day 1 scenario 4.

Playing SoWGB reminds me of Captain Polenin of K19 during the drill at the beginning of the movie when the firing computer console has a malfunction and he explodes in rage against the navy commissioner spitting in his face he has to fight the incompetence of the assembly crew using wrong equipment. "That's what I have to fight before I can fight the war" he says. :)

Anyway... For this test I used a visibility restriction of 300yds plenty to see around but not unlimited. I also used the SIDE courier level, waiting for some more tweaks before I can resume to my fav playing fashion again.

I moved the whole division, including artillery to capture McPherson's farm and observed the following:

To begin with, O-Neal starts as detached. He ignores my orders of reattaching. This has to do with the thing I mentioned about scenario making. If O-Neal can't be given orders, I expect to read about this (and why so) in the scenario description and if he can be put under my command I would also like to know how (and why). Nevertheless, that's a minor issue.

A higher-degree issue is that, we have generals changing their strategic orders and overriding mine. I am supposed to be in charge of my DIV but of course the AI generals must also have some degree of initiative but I think they should at least have a reason to change my orders and I couldn't find one. It is especially important that a guy who's given an attack order doesn't switch to hold to the last like that. Perhaps he should switch to probe first, defend next and then hold to the last.

All troops tried to do what they were asked for. Since we are in DIV sized combat (and I'm the DIV leader) issuing strategic orders to the BDE generals WORKS for as long as the AI doesn't change them.

The only problem is that if a general decides to hold, there's no way to make him move and since they change their orders on their own accord, it's important to remember that in order to move a BDE (and especially the Arty) you must first give them a NONE strategic order. This compels the player to check over and over again all BDE commanders and their current strategic stance before moving orders can be issued.

The Union AI put up a good fight (remarkably good with infantry and I'm very impressed) and, as long as it had the ARTY advantage the objective could not be reached. When the 4 guns defending McPherson's farm were routed (at the costs on my infantry you can imagine), I could finally move the entire division on the objective to capture it.

Had I not quit to write this report, the score would have been much higher in my favor but I also let things evolve this way because my main concern in this test was the artillery.

I moved all my guns within 400yds from the targets (leaving the AI to pick targets and ammo) so that the Union was under constant barrage from the beginning to the end (you can read their scores in the attached SS).

http://www.norbsoftdev.com/media/kunena ... s_test.jpg[/img_size]

I don't think I need to mention that next time I will move to McPherson's farm with my artillery in front line so that it's not only the Union using cannister but me too especially considering the losses I took to rout the Union Artillery.

Reese's score comes from cannister because I was surprised on my left flank by a single Union RGT (which then surrendered when charged), the other guns in total achieved ONE kill during the battle which lasted about 30 minutes of game time.

30' -> 400yds -> 1 kill.

Now I really can't say anything anymore because I need to metabolize this disappointment. I am asking again if the new tweaks to the arty need to be inserted in scenario files or if the master files will affect scenarios. In other words, are the scenarios up to date with the artillery fixes?
Attachments
rodes_test.jpg
rodes_test.jpg (164.78 KiB) Viewed 388 times
Last edited by GShock on Sat May 01, 2010 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
RebBugler
Reactions:
Posts: 4256
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:51 am
Location: Ouachita Mountains, Arkansas

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by RebBugler »

"However, the point is that arty didn't work in Tc2M and doesn't work in SoWGB. I stopped playing Tc2M because I couldn't mod it to work (nobody could) and most certainly I will stop playing SoWGB for the same reason without such fix."

Guess you didn't play any of my SR1 mods. I certainly thought I had pumped up the artillery. Shell bursts at 500 yds were taking out big chunks of troops, on a company level of course. Smoothbores were always inefficient at long range, but that's realsim.

Still, you bring up some good observations with your testing, keep 'em coming. Don't get discouraged, all ideas are listened to and weighed with the big picture, and there's much to be balanced here. Some things work better for MP, some things for SP, it's presently a balancing act so that both modes can evolve realistically and gameplay wise.

Regarding the arty fixes in scenarios, I'm assuming so, maybe someone will chime in on this one. You're kill stats certainly seem low for a 30 minute barrage.

Thanks again for the feedback. :)
Last edited by RebBugler on Sat May 01, 2010 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bugles & Flags Gettysburg - Toolbar, Flags, Scenarios, and More...
GShock
Reactions:
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:11 pm

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by GShock »

Oh don't worry I dont get discouraged at all, even though I see my Karma has dropped lately. :)

I just came out of another test with Rodes' scenario. This time I moved the guns in front line and cannistered the Union to death for a major victory (6800pts). I let the guns cannon behind my firing lines for about 50' and the score was really negative because they were getting hit and just beyond cannister range then when I moved them ahead and they started hitting something, everything changed.

Half of the 50' were spent cannoning enemy artillery. I saw the holes in the ground but didn't see losses. I really hope the arty can be fixed very soon and I am wondering if it wouldn't be a bad idea to add extra tables according to the target type modifiers so that we can have a realistic hit ratio according not only to the shooter but also to the tgt type. This would allow us to target supply wagons and generals (with heavy penalties of course) and make things extremely easier to playtest for balanced results.

It does look awful to see generals in open field right before your RGTs and not being even shot at and the same goes for couriers. This would really help solving the problem of INF shooting ART. Hits taken from this table would spawn a higher degree of morale loss so that you can rout an artillery without needing to really charge it to put it out of commission. Anyway enough with testing I want to look back at everything and build a list to recap what I found, then I'll move on and see what comes next in the scenarios. :)
GShock
Reactions:
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:11 pm

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by GShock »

All right, much has been said about the artillery not properly working so I took my time rather to move on to just play a new scenario to examine the hit rates of the CSA Artillery displayed in the DIV tutorial.

It is not hard to produce an AAR but it is relatively hard to post it on forums. I will try to show the story of this engagement and why the arty is not working by describing the situation or the things to take notes on in the caption of each separate picture.

http://www.norbsoftdev.com/media/kunena ... en0004.jpg[/img_size]

The Union is coming. Garber and his artillery are set on NONE (strat orders) so that they are allowed to move and deployed behind my lines in proximity of the objective. Normally I would send them to front line to make them useful but for the purpose of this test I need to send them just beyond cannister range (200yds). My lines will move ahead of them to keep the Union from coming within the cannister range and we will count the enemy casualties inflicted by my artillery to see whether or not this is how lethal the arty should be. These orders have been issued at the very start of the game: 11.00AM.

I will post the rest of the SS onto a hosting filesite because I simply can't seem to upload all pictures into the same post (d'oh). The AAR will be posted in the forums instead. Just a moment of patience, sorry.... :blush:
Attachments
screen0004.jpg
screen0004.jpg (333.86 KiB) Viewed 388 times
Last edited by GShock on Wed May 05, 2010 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GShock
Reactions:
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:11 pm

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by GShock »

My artillery enters in action at 11.04 but this SS is taken at 11.07 to show that the Union Arty is already bombing it. So take notes: At 11.04 the engagement starts. My artillery shoots and is shot back at by the Union Artillery. (img007)


11.12: 8 minutes of constant barrage already but there are no casualties either on my artillery from the union counterbarrage or on the union infantry being targeted at much much closer range.
Remember: My artillery is totally stationary and we may also guess my targets are stationary since they are being engaged by my lines ahead of my batteries. (img009)

11.20: 16' of barrage my arty does its first hits: Cannister of course. 5 kills (Garber is farther than the cannister rng, the rightmost gun is within cannister range). (img0011/0012)

11.24: I am hitting without wanting to, with cannister but I am also being hit and my closest gun is routed. Garber is tasked to move back. This test is a failure and will need to build a new AAR unfortunately. (img0014)


11.28: The union keeps advancing on my left side and they come again within cannister range. (img0017)


11.30: Back to standard ammunition. (img0018)


11.34: match over and score. I lost 9 men, all to musket fire but I've been bombed for long by the Union Arty which got few if any hits (I didn't check but definitely 0 on my artillery). All casualties caused by my guns were done by cannister. I will need to repeat this test (whose results are totally expected because I know how it DOESNT work it's just that I never posted about it before) by putting Garber much much more behind. The problem is that I wanted to show that cannister is the only useful ammunition but in order to do so, I need to shoot at the best possible accuracy bonus beyond 200yds but no farther than 400yds.

Img files are at: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2QONPQZM


Moving on to redo this test and putting Garber farther behind and beyond cannister range.
Attachments
screen0009.jpg
screen0009.jpg (347.33 KiB) Viewed 388 times
Last edited by GShock on Thu May 06, 2010 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
GShock
Reactions:
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:11 pm

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by GShock »

All right I got the results of the new test but I took much fewer SS this time. This test is much more reliable in regards with the artillery of both sides. The whole engagement lasted 38 minutes and here's to it.

SS0018: New position of Garber for this test.
SS0020: Final score for Garber. Be advised, these 15 kills are not coming from cannister. The range was between 400 and 600 yds all the match and all kills were achieved on routing units.

SS0021: The overall score of USA Arty is faked because one of my BDEs went to attack their guns so we can't have a look at the other guns but I did find ONE gun to look at in particular. It has ZERO ammo, so it's been shooting for 38 minutes and since it hit nothing it means it was not engaged in cannister fire with my "renegade" attacking BDE.

Be advised, NONE of my units routed so Union Arty could not grab the bonus for hits and this is why I scored 15 and the Union Arty scored 0: look at the skill of this gun.

SS0022/23/24/25: Skilled gunners, breakdown of Garber's performances. 38 minutes of constant barrage (1 gun has ZERO casualties in 38 minutes).

The others have laughable hit statistics (despite the skill) and mind these hits were caused on routing units.


Screenshots at: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QE8V2EU2
GShock
Reactions:
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:11 pm

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by GShock »

All right here's another test, much more reliable even if it was very short in timing. I need to get "organized" to make longer tests, even though I am pretty confident you are by now aware that I am not raving or sick or something and that what I am saying is based on evidence... :)
I think I'll do next test in the Rodes' Scenario; more guns and the Union will not be moving towards me so it will probably be the final test.

For the purpose of demonstrating the artillery is ineffective the way it is, I have had to totally bring out of the engagement my infantry and this means the Union Infantry will come to cannister range pretty fast. However, there was no musket fire so all the casualties are caused by the artillery and all by non-cannister ammunition.

This time I'm going to link the pix from a hosting site rather than upload a zip (let's hope it works lol).

Image

This is the position i selected for the artillery test. It's right behind the obj road and the Union is expected to advance in open field. The guns are deployed and the SS is taken at the exact time of their first shot. Target RGT at this time is 634yds away.

Image

5 minutes later (more or less) the Union troops are still advancing in open field. Killed 0 enemy. If you zooom in on this picture you will see there's been a hit right in the center of the target RGT, which is moving in column formation and in open field.

Image

We are now at cannister range. The 4 guns have shot for exactly 5 minutes and casualties are still ZERO.

Image

I had of course to quit this test because it's pointless to calculate on the cannister hits. Cannister WILL work, it was not the goal of this test. Total statistics are: 30 shots = 0 casualties on the enemy (open field as you have seen).

Image

Interestingly, while my infantry was moving behind my guns, in the same timeframe, one of the Union guns hit one of my RGT causing 4 casualties This happened at the very start of the scenario and I had already noticed it so for the purpose of testing, whoever designed the tutorial can assess the accuracy of this hit at the starting distance between Union guns and CSA infantry lines.
Union gun #3 is limbered and I have no clue if it is moving or if it has been shooting along with the others before the end of this test. In any case, the Union totalled 17 shots (if we guess that #3 didn't shoot at all, otherwise it would probably be 20 shots) with 4 kills.

Now, 20/4=5.

If you intend to tell me that every 5 shots the artillery in the civil war killed 1 man, you are welcome. I'm moving to Rodes' scenario now.
ADukes
Reactions:
Posts: 862
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:38 pm

Re:A bit of thinking

Post by ADukes »

Maybe you should finally switch to solid ammo instead of firing shells.
Post Reply