How's the status of artillery ? wrong or not - fixed or not?

[BOSTON]

In the tutorial Corp scenario, I had Tompkins artillery div. line up pretty much hub to hub on the left flank of Xl corp. When practable, had all the artillery targeting artillery by battery COs command. Over time took some casualties, however knocked out two CSA batteries and casualties to others, never mind the CSA infantry loses occurred when they approached my guns. To save my guns, had to run out infantry to blunt attacks, then pull them behind the guns afterwards.

To wrap it up, I was somewhat satisfied with the long range artillery effects. It certainly was better than TC2M.

[GShock]

RebBugler wrote:

Sir, the artillery effectiveness has been tested meticulously as per historic standards, and works as advertised. Also, the new targeting command appears to be working well (more testing still needed here), so you can make your artillery more effective using this command.

The question is still the same, and this is the third time I ask it: Are we *sure* the tweaks you did to the arty in the 1.01b2 are working IN the scenarios and tutorials?

Maybe they work for multiplayer but not for single player?

How do you explain 1 hour of barrage at 500yds with 16 guns I keep totalling 0 kills?

I don't have any logical explanation to these figures, try to understand, I'm not being sarcastic or willingly trying to bother you, guys, but I would really like to understand how you can say it works when it's pretty evident it doesn't; how can it be working if beyond cannister range it can't kill a fly?

D'oh... Don't know anymore how to put it...

[Little Powell]

GShock wrote:

RebBugler wrote:

Sir, the artillery effectiveness has been tested meticulously as per historic standards, and works as advertised. Also, the new targeting command appears to be working well (more testing still needed here), so you can make your artillery more effective using this command.

The question is still the same, and this is the third time I ask it: Are we *sure* the tweaks you did to the arty in the 1.01b2 are working IN the scenarios and tutorials?

Maybe they work for multiplayer but not for single player?

How do you explain 1 hour of barrage at 500yds with 16 guns I keep totalling 0 kills?

I don't have any logical explanation to these figures, try to understand, I'm not being sarcastic or willingly trying to bother you, guys, but I would really like to understand how you can say it works when it's pretty evident it doesn't; how can it be working if beyond cannister range it can't kill a fly?

D'oh... Don't know anymore how to put it...

Yes they are working. The only way they won't work in the scenario's is if you're using a saved game that was made before the beta patch. I don't have the exact numbers, but when I was playing the 2nd scenario the other day using 1.01b2, I had my artillery far from canister range, and one of my batteries racked up 35 points.. Not bad for artillery and much better than it used to be.

[BOSTON]

GShock wrote:

RebBugler wrote:

Sir, the artillery effectiveness has been tested meticulously as per historic standards, and works as advertised. Also, the new targeting command appears to be working well (more testing still needed here), so you can make your artillery more effective using this command.

The question is still the same, and this is the third time I ask it: Are we *sure* the tweaks you did to the arty in the 1.01b2 are working IN the scenarios and tutorials?

Maybe they work for multiplayer but not for single player?

How do you explain 1 hour of barrage at 500yds with 16 guns I keep totalling 0 kills?

I don't have any logical explanation to these figures, try to understand, I'm not being sarcastic or willingly trying to bother you, guys, but I would really like to understand how you can say it works when it's pretty evident it doesn't; how can it be working if beyond cannister range it can't kill a fly?

D'oh... Don't know anymore how to put it...

I'd think you would have to provide more info, for something is a-miss, it does not add up?

Are you taking artillery casualties while this is going on?

16 guns would be 4 CSA batteries against how many Union guns?

[GShock]

Statement: my artillery only causes damage when employing cannister.

This statement has been documented in Rodes' scenario. 4 batteries, 18 kills, all of which caused by cannister. Guns had been left at 500yds from McPherson's objective in order to do the test. A single battery was surprised on my left flank by a RGT which then got captured when my infantry charged it.

Undocumented but fully tested and repeated multiple times (moving my leftmost artillery on the right side of my lines, out of Union RGT proximity), brought this result:

4 batteries, 0 kills.

Now, Reb's statement is: "the artillery effectiveness has been tested meticulously as per historic standards, and works as advertised".

I challenge this statement with arguments based on logics and I would like to see the same method of argumenting (by logics) when supporting that thesis.

0 kills to me indicates NOT WORKING and the reasons why it's not working are the ones expressed by MTG:

Solid can fall short but roll and still hit.
Shrapnel can be inaccurate but still hit (when the fuse works) and the same goes with Shell. Both Shrapnel, Solid and Shell can cause damage without a direct hit and, on a battlefield, you may even hit a regiment nearby the one you targeted because of these all being area weapons (each to its own extent of course).

Artillery IS an area effect weapon and ammunition type should take this in consideration by modifying the accuracy tables which define whether there was a hit or not. It is after all a matter of accuracy. We do know that CSA guns were inaccurate and their ammunition fuses a bit more defective but accuracy is not really an issue with an area effect weapon because the ammunition is designed SPECIFICALLY to overcome the need for an accurate shot to cause damage.

There are 4 ammo types: Solid (0 kills), Shell (0 kills), Shrapnel (0 kills) and Cannister (18 kills).

I said it and I will repeat it: you can miss a shot because you are a n00by crew. You can miss the second because smoke prevented you from adjusting your aim. You can miss the third because the target moved. You can miss the fourth because the fuse didn't work.

You can miss 10 shots and you can miss them IN A ROW, but if you miss with all your ammunition (excluding Cannister), if you can't even hit by mistake someone anywhere near your intended target with an area effect weapon and you still claim this artillery is working, then you must sustain this statement with logics.

I believe I have, and I believe I have also documented the problem.

In no way, I am trying to drag anyone down on dialectics or look somehow, defiant or arrogant. In no way I am trying to hurt the game, I am just trying to understand why my guns score 0 kills unless I am using cannister, that's all.

[BOSTON]

Sometimes I go off on a tangient about something I don't understand, then the light get's brighter when someone posts the answer that was always right in front of me. In your case; I would have to double check LOS and ammo supply/fatique/own casualties per gun at the beginning/end of scenario.

[GShock]

Without LOS, units can't fire, Boston. So if they fire and keep firing during all the engagement and come up with 0 kills something ain't working.

Of course, since they keep firing it means they DO have ammunition to expend and the tests proved not only that my artillery didn't do any damage (occasionally in a few tests over 2 thousands of casualties, just TWO kills were produced by my artillery) to the enemy but, also, my artillery got bombed in return all the time long without taking any casualties either.

Problem is I am player, I can go gamey: I move my arty in front line and use cannister. The AI won't do that so we MUST fix the artillery. It is absolutely mandatory imo.

I think MTG is also right (now that I reread his post) with a couple of features not being modelled when arty hits arty and that's ANOTHER reason why I would like an extra table to define other parameters and modifiers according to the target type (courier, general, supply wagon, cavalry, infantry, artillery). In the examples brought forth by MTG, we could use such table to produce the direct hit on a gun which should disable it once and for all. That's surely missing, at present time when you hit you only kill the gun servers but the gun remains intact.

Incidentally, this is the reason why I asked *in detail* about the mechanics of the hit/miss ratio to Shirkon earlier on (read above in this thread). I am very confident the reason why the arty is *largely* ineffective is because it's being treated like musket fire: hit/miss.

If the arty starts to be treated like area-effect weapon, where accuracy takes into account that you don't strictly need a direct hit to cause damage, then everything will change. For the better, of course.

Musket is just plainly simple: You either hit or you don't. It's the bullet causing damage. Granted, you shoot a regiment so if you aim at the chest of your intended target, you can still hit the foot of the man next to him in the line. This is relatively easy to achieve with the mere parameter of accuracy linked to the weapon type/rng and RGT experience. In the case of artillery, even missing by 20yds can do damage (according to the ammo type) so, the same method of calculating the hit/miss ratio can NOT be employed with success.

We do have a table for the fuses reliability, I guess we need a table for the area radius. This might come handy to deliver casual hits on targets that are not the intended target, as well as causing friendly fire casualties.

[BOSTON]

Of course, since they keep firing it means they DO have ammunition to expend and the tests proved not only that my artillery didn't do any damage (occasionally in a few tests over 2 thousands of casualties, just TWO kills were produced by my artillery) to the enemy but, also, my artillery got bombed in return all the time long without taking any casualties either.

When I asked you some questions I was looking for a common denominator. You answered it!

also, my artillery got bombed in return all the time long without taking any casualties either.

I would'nt be asking just why your artillery is so lousy, but why was the otherside's artillery so lousy causing casualties to your batteries?

[Marching Thru Georgia]

I think that the point Gshock and I are making here is that artillery is modelled just like musket fire, only direct hits count. The current artillery tables may indeed reflect this accurately, but there is much more to arty fire, close counts, and the formation of the troops relative to the cannons is important.

What we have in the game is a good first order approximation of arty fire, but to make artillery a useful military arm, we need the real world behavior modelled.

Besides, Norb needs a new challenge.

[BOSTON]

Well let's see where these trains of thought go? for they are not without merit, like some other subjects. I would think if there is no resolution right away, that it must be on somebody's list to be considered later on, nobody can help but noticing the posts.