A bit of thinking

[GShock]

So, we have ascertained and confirmed that strategic orders given to DIV commanders will not be performed unless the MOVE order is issued first. This means BDE strat orders will work as intended [STRAT = MOVE + STRAT] while DIV strat orders will only work (to some extent) with the formula [DIV move THEN STRAT]. This is supposed to work, however I don't know how it can ever really work if the DIV commander will not move troops on his own to pursue the STRAT order he's been given (he's moving all right but his subordinate BDE generals and their troops aren't so this formula only basically works when "on-the-spot".

I am now tackling the 1st scenario on the Union side. It appears that unTCed RGTs are not always capable of engaging the enemy when in "fence-cover" position. They keep stuttering ahead and back with no apparent reason though enemy is in range. The CAV AI needs a bit of tweaking as soldiers should automatically dismount and engage when in range of the enemy to reduce micromanagement.

The three most important things to take notice about in this scenario are that, as per what we already know all too well, the CSA AI cannot basically take the objective unless the player really plays bad. This is because the player is using cannister (which does considerable damage to the INF RGTs while the AI is using long range ART (which doesn't kill even a fly on SoWGB battlefield at present time). Added to this, there are many spots with cover, USA is always in range for resupply on the spot while CSA AI doesn't push its supply wagon forward (and presumably the CSA INF runs out of ammo) *and* CSA AI is attacking uphill. The player's CAV while tiring easily doesn't seem to retreat even when totally exhausted. That's really in need of some tweaking.

The final issue regards the retreats. I have seen troops retreating just on top of the enemy RGT, disregarding stacking rules and seemingly taking no losses. Pathing on rout/retreat should be worked on.

Recap:
1) "Stuttering" when in presence of cover.
2) CAV should auto-dismount when in range.
3) AI Supply wagon should push a closer to the front to be useful to the AI.
4) INF vs ART is ineffective (guns are not obliterated in ranged combat.
5) Long range non-cannister ART fire is ineffective (totally ineffective for CSA).
6) Problems with troops retreating and passing through enemy troops apparently untouched (including generals).
7) Exhausted CAV doesn't retreat or rout.

There's a final note for scenario makers. This scenario is brilliantly designed and the aforementioned flaws do not depend on the designer (and if fixed, most certainly the scenario itself would have to be reworked for balance). The description is good, the role of Devin who starts undetached is critical but there is the need to specify the technicalities of this scenario to newcoming players. They must know what to do to involve the detached troops and under what conditions they can be brought to battle. This is true for all scenarios because the possibility of involving troops via TC or via Courier request for help must be specified in detail (I'm putting myself in the shoes of a newcomer of course it's not a personal problem of mine). I clarify: Detailed game-configuration of any DIV/BDE/RGT starting detached, why and under what condition they can be involved and how to involve them must be written in scenario description.

As usual my personal analisys is my personal point of view on how to possibly improving the game. It is not a request, not an order, not a demand, just a personal opinion.

[GShock]

I now saw for the first time the scenario from the CSA point of view (Scen2 day 1). Here's what I found or... what has happened during my game.

I had forgotten in my previous post to specify that I rose the orders courier level to Side. That's because until they are fixed, the way I would like to play, for the many times mentioned reasons (bugs mostly), cannot be played. I also set a visibility radius of 500yds... that's again because due to terrain and lack of ability to give orders to units in remote locations, I find it impossible (or near to impossible) to play with restricted camera view (10yds is my standard setting). Perhaps these 2 settings altered have allowed me to see much much more of what goes on in the battlefield. Good for playtesting.

To begin with, I noticed no Union Cavalry ahead of me. I fought mostly against Wadsworth (I had expected the scenario to be the mirror of the same scenario seen from union side, which is Buford's cavalry). Fully knowing that my artillery would not be a factor in combat while the union arty would be in cannister rng with my infantry, I attacked with arty in front line and I managed to take the objective and hold it for a long time very soon. Basically our ART both fought at cannister range.

I was able to capture one enemy ART which would not attach and would not respond to my orders. I observed this captured ART (captured without its limber) as it RETREATED very slowly out of the battlefield. It was unusable for the whole game... despite trying even to TC it... sad (and unexplainable).

I also investigated on the reasons why my starting ART (which was critical in inflicting major casualties to the Union AI) would not move and basically I found out that the STRAT orders imposed on ART over the move orders. What I am trying to say is that if there's a strategic order selected which is not NONE, the MOVE order (on the move tab) will move the STRAT objective marker to the new spot but the arty itself and their leader will NOT move there. As soon as my MOVE order is given, the STRAT order marker is moved but despite remaining in the spot i selected, the AI leader "overrules" such order hence the arty doesn't move. The problem is solved by selecting NONE as STRAT order. At that point the MOVE order will work and ARTY will move. THIS IS MOST CERTAINLY THE REASON WHY THE ARTY IN THE DIV TUTORIAL WAS NOT MOVING and it clears the mystery over this issue for me... as I've been trying to understand the reasons why this was happening for very long!

Another thing I noticed is that the Union Supply wagon does not appear in the TGT list. This means my INF cannot capture it, rout it or destroy it in any possible way (including charge of course). It simply is not a valid target and I approached to no farther than 100yds without results other than the wagon (correctly) moving away.

The result of this match was surprisingly an inconsistent battle which is really odd considering I routed almost all the Union units and held the objective for so long (gotta try again to see why this happened).

Last but no least there's an SS depicting a serious problem with the STRAT orders (again, sigh).

http://www.norbsoftdev.com/media/kunena ... en0001.jpg[/img_size]

Davis is tasked to hold the objective and you can see the STRAT order right behind the objective marker (there's also the circle marking it on the ground). Now look at where Davis and his RGTs are, on the right by the white square. The X represents the spot he insists on moving his leftmost (battle line wise) regiment. I had to solve this situation by setting the STRAT orders to NONE and issuing a new MOVE order.

We have so the following situation: when a strat order is selected, any move order will be assigned to strat order (click on spot = move +strat) but this DOESNT work for DIV generals, only with BDE generals. Unfortunately, AI generals will not always (most of the times but not always) follow such orders. I am wondering if it wouldn't be best to remove the STRAT orders until they are fixed.

Why? Because I am GUESSING there's a reason why Davis is ignoring my orders. The logical reason might be his psychology, the type of leader he is. But if I can overrule this factor by TCing or by making NONE his strat orders and then make him move where I want and not where he wants, what's the point of the leader's psychology? One of the two, either the psychology is in place, hence the player must not be allowed to override it, OR the psychology has nothing to do with it and this is another problem of the STRAT orders.

If you are wondering what was hiding in the woods, it was 3 RGTs of the Union which I quickly disposed of, once I found out how to bring my Arty in front line. Davis was forced to go back to the objective and Archer's subcommander (a Major... because Archer was captured though I SADLY didn't notice a decrease in his troops performance) took his place. When the Union tried to recapture the obj, it got cannister-enfiladed from the right (battle line wise) and engaged by musket on the front.

[Little Powell]

What are the strategic orders that you have given Davis per the screenshots?

[GShock]

Well I don't remember right now exactly but isn't that spiked ball used for Defense/Hold? I don't think I would have him use offensive orders because the objective has been captured by me very soon and I wanted to keep all men there to rest and accumulate points. This is definitely a defensive order of some sort but I can't recall which one specifically, sorry.

I "insisted" with him issuing the order about 3 times then I reverted to NONE and issued the Move order then his bde returned to follow my orders.

From this point and onwards, I am using the beta 2 so all my observations regard the new beta.

I'm just out of scenario 3 (day 1). Solomon's bde. Playing again with restricted view, so I have very little data to observe (can't see a damn, in other words because it's woods everywhere lol).

It appears that 147th NY has been assigned to me (as detached unit) in reserve along with the 6th Wisconsin. However, I couldn't get a hold of the 147th regiment, the orders tab was empty like it didn't belong to me at all. Perhaps it's a mistake in scenario design. No way to attach or give any order of any sort to it.

I'll try some more later, with a less restrictive camera view.

[Little Powell]

GShock wrote:

Well I don't remember right now exactly but isn't that spiked ball used for Defense/Hold? I don't think I would have him use offensive orders because the objective has been captured by me very soon and I wanted to keep all men there to rest and accumulate points. This is definitely a defensive order of some sort but I can't recall which one specifically, sorry.

I "insisted" with him issuing the order about 3 times then I reverted to NONE and issued the Move order then his bde returned to follow my orders.

From this point and onwards, I am using the beta 2 so all my observations regard the new beta.

I'm just out of scenario 3 (day 1). Solomon's bde. Playing again with restricted view, so I have very little data to observe (can't see a damn, in other words because it's woods everywhere lol).

It appears that 147th NY has been assigned to me (as detached unit) in reserve along with the 6th Wisconsin. However, I couldn't get a hold of the 147th regiment, the orders tab was empty like it didn't belong to me at all. Perhaps it's a mistake in scenario design. No way to attach or give any order of any sort to it.

I'll try some more later, with a less restrictive camera view.

That sounds like why Davis's regiments have ventured away from his Strat orders destination. Defend, Hold, there's still a chance his regiments will move away from the area if they are engaging enemy's. The only order that keeps them in place is Hold To The Last.

Also, I'm not sure what gave you the impression that the 147th NY got assigned to you. He's part of Cutlers brigade and not under your control.

[GShock]

Courier message, LP.
I am assigned 147NY and 6WI with the specific recommendation to keep the 6th out of battle if possible (unspecified reason).

Theoretically, anyway, the defend order should take place so that BDEs will be arranged by generals around the obj (within a certain radius) facing the closest threat. I did have 4 RGT in those woods but Davis basically launched the attack instead of waiting for them to come to him at the objective. He really automoved the mentioned RGT 3 times around those woods and I kept manually overriding it until I found out the better STRAT order is NONE.

That was a lucky one, you see what I mean with Historical (or even custom) restricted visibility, you will have no chance at all to prevent these things from happening because you really don't see them. I desperately need the mini-map orders option.

[Little Powell]

GShock wrote:

Courier message, LP.
I am assigned 147NY and 6WI with the specific recommendation to keep the 6th out of battle if possible (unspecified reason).

Theoretically, anyway, the defend order should take place so that BDEs will be arranged by generals around the obj (within a certain radius) facing the closest threat. I did have 4 RGT in those woods but Davis basically launched the attack instead of waiting for them to come to him at the objective. He really automoved the mentioned RGT 3 times around those woods and I kept manually overriding it until I found out the better STRAT order is NONE.

That was a lucky one, you see what I mean with Historical (or even custom) restricted visibility, you will have no chance at all to prevent these things from happening because you really don't see them. I desperately need the mini-map orders option.

Ahh.. I'll have to check that courier message then. It's either something new, or something I missed before. I do know that you shouldn't have control over the 147NY. Only the Iron Brigade regiments.

There has been talk in improving the strategic orders. Even adding more orders. I have this on my to-do list of something to extensively test and see if I can come up with ways to improve it.

Mini-map orders options is also in the feature wishlist. I'd love to see this put in, along with assigning commanders to hot keys.

[Marching Thru Georgia]

I can also confirm GShock's observations concerning current strategic orders interferring with new movement orders. But as he points out, resetting the orders to 'None' fixes the problem.

Another problem that I find but haven't seen it discussed very much is the ineffectiveness of flank fire. Fresh, veteran troops firing into the enemy's flank do significant damage, with the enemy quickly falling back. However, 600 less than veteran troops do almost no damage. Nor do they seem to have much of a psychological impact on the enemy. They can stand there, blasting away for some time and have seemingly little effect. This does not seem historically accurate. For instance, Stannard did tremendous damage on Day 3, but in the game, having all three regiments firing away at the flanks, rarely produces more than 20 casualties and doesn't even slow down the attack. During the napoleonic wars, there were many, many instances of a regiment making a flank attack, resulting in the enemy's entire line disintegrating. This is why cavalry protection of the flanks was considered so important in European military doctrine.

Flank attacks in TC2M seem to be much more effective than in SOW. Is this an issue that can be fixed by editing the appropriate CSV files, or does it require an software change?

[GShock]

The strategic orders are a bit tricky on the AI logic... you can make it work within a distinct range from the spot (hold) giving priority to moving in cover and facing the closest threats (without moving away from the spot). Now hold would keep some RGTs in reserve and Hold at all costs would deploy everything in front line.

Defend might be something like a wider range of movement and limited counterattack capability (wider range from spot).

Probe might work like something like scouting, say the BDE leader sends a couple of RGTs towards the enemy who will stand for X minutes in combat and then retreat back to the spot after taking XX% casualties.

Attack and All out Attack would work more or less like Hold and Hold at all costs. Perhaps some different terminology might work here so that:

a) we save on a set of buttons by making HOLD and ATTACK the same function (modders will use the extra room to add other functions, i.e. the 5,6,7 and 8 key functions)
b) Reduce stress on AI logic routines (and rig hardware)

I am thinking of something like the AACW ROE buttons (All out attack, engage, defend, passive). I mean the fighting stance of the combat unit (at all levels ABOVE RGT). Not too complex to explain but I can't believe none of you in the team knows what I'm talking about so I will postpone the exact explanation.

What's important is that if these orders are fixed and properly working it wouldn't be a bad idea to build in preferences the exclusion of TC/UnTC function. You GOT to make the plan but it's the AI that does it for you (it is a MUST setting for limited visibility grognards).

@MTG --> These things can be modded and re-finetuned. It's in the csv files. It's pretty evident when you see 600 men slaughtered by cannister while shooting on 15 gun servers.

[GShock]

There is definitely something wrong with "Blood on the Run" scenario.

General Solomon was NEVER able to give support bonus even when standing in the middle of his own lines. Tried with the whole BDE, it simply doesn't work anymore and I hope it's just in this scenario...