A bit of thinking

[GShock]

I think that the issue with Arty not moving might be related to the courier BDE level along with the fact the Arty (just like all other units) prioritize shooting on other order types.

Essentially when you have a target in range it becomes difficult to move the units and with the arty there's an extra move to perform (limbering/unlimbering).

I was unable to move the very same BDE general *despite* TCing him (I even saw the courier message to the TCed commander with orders coming from me to move to a location and he DIDNT move of course he didn't move the Arty units either). This happened when I had already won the battle and there were no infantry units on the union side. The arty kept shooting (on union arty) and right after my couriers were getting to the arty leader I saw my orders placed and then OVERRULED by the AI Bde arty general. He refused to move the whole scenario both in TCed and in UNTced mode.

I am absolutely sure I never had such problem in the DIV tutorial *before* switching to BDE courier mode. I believe (though I haven't tested it yet) that the problem with the DIV commanders not issuing orders to BDE commanders (experienced in CORPS tutorial) might *also* be related to the BDE courier mode. I am sure if you set the team to test with this setting they will see the same behavior I saw.

[GShock]

There's another note I wanted to post BEFORE going to investigate on the Courier system being possibly the problem with DIV commanders not passing orders on and arty being unable to move and it's about the rgt facing according to the ground bonus (fences and stonewalls).

I have noticed that regiments tend to wheel very frequently to match the target location with a perfect facing. If there was a routine telling the RGT to keep the facing of the fence and other bonus-generating ground cover we could have a better working support bonus which doesn't hurt the eyecandy of the battlefield. I know the RGT flag is the indicator, so wherever the flag is, regardless of the RGT facing, that RGT will or will NOT be in cover. I am simply thinking that a RGT would be ordered to stay behind the stonewall or fence and shoot diagonally so perhaps forcing a RGT NOT TO WHEEL when in ground cover would do the trick. Just 5c, I wanted to post this before forgetting about it.

[Monty]

GShock wrote:

I think that the issue with Arty not moving might be related to the courier BDE level along with the fact the Arty (just like all other units) prioritize shooting on other order types.

This is certainly a problem. Trying to control arty through the courier system is like trying to herd cats...through a courier system. Why can't I just order my artillery brigade commander to form his guns where I want them formed and have them form up there? Why do the battery commanders think they have a better idea of where they should be placed than their brigade commander? I would rather not have to resort to TCing the entire arty bde, especially when I'm playing historical setting.

I believe this problem also prevents artillery batteries from replenishing their ammo. I order the arty commanders to reload their guns, they limber up, move a few feet in the direction of their supply wagon, then unlimber and continue to plug away at the enemy. Resupplying arty on the historical setting means galloping over to the supply wagon, TCing the wagon, placing the wagon at one end of the line of guns, and then galloping with the wagon through the line of guns.

[GShock]

Yes Monty but the problem is that I couldn't move the Bde commander even after TCing him because the AI took over. To make the test speedily I set Jubal Early right there so the couriers would arrive instantly but I am absolutely sure these problems did NOT take place when the courier system was NOT in BDE mode. Have you checked and seen both this issue AND the DIV commander issue with other courier modes?

[Monty]

I have only seen that kind of behaviour in scenarios where the author has decided that you can't override the AI on certain units. I witnessed this in the Rodes scenario where I tried and failed to overrule a brigade launching the initial assault. I would TC the regiments, they would halt briefly, before continuing on because the author had hard coded them to carry out their mission.

Have you tested your problem in sandbox?

[GShock]

Can't be in the DIV tutorial, I am absolutely sure I moved the Arty at least once in a test right under the objective. In fact its score was 0 and the purpose of this test was to keep it OUT of cannister range.

It's got to be related to couriers at BDE level but I haven't had time to try today (yet )

[GShock]

I ran the DIV and CORPS tutorial in Courier ARMY mode and these are the results.

In the DIV tutorial, I could move the Arty anywhere I wanted without any sort of problems or AI overruling my choice. I had expected that. This means the Courier level affects the AI logics and it has got to be fixed otherwise we can't play with this order level because generals simply don't follow the orders.

Conclusions: The Courier orders level affects the Arty leader so that he becomes impossible to issue orders to. The INFANTRY generals work perfect (I made sure all BDE generals were following STRATEGIC orders and they did).

Technically this tutorial is the perfect testing scenario: It is complex enough yet also very simple due to the limited number of troops to manage and the presence of a roughly flat and clear terrain that allows good observation points even with a very restricted camera view like the one I use.


In the CORPS tutorial, I issued STRATEGIC orders to all the generals and the result is in the Screenshot.

http://www.norbsoftdev.com/media/kunena ... ourier.jpg[/img_size]


As you can see in this SS I highlighted Howe (but I assigned STRATEGIC orders to all DIV generals). Howe took my strategic orders and moved to the spot and so did the other 2.
However, you can also see his DIV is in the back because he didn't resubmit these orders to his BDE generals.

By looking at the troop concentration in Gettysburg you can see none of my INFANTRY RGTs have moved to their assigned orders... That is quite evident considering the 11th CORPS is already engaged while the scenario has me reach the engagement area once the battle is already raging on the field.

Essentially, by issuing STRATEGIC orders, only the DIV generals moved but the BDE generals and their regiments HAVEN'T. The DIV generals will remain in their assigned locations all alone and it's confirmed: The orders are right there (as you can see from the SS).

On the other hand, I tested the difference with a simple MOVE + Line Formation + Quick Step + Use roads with the ARTY commander and ALL the batteries are moving with him. I had expected that... I mean I already knew.

Conclusions: Issuing a MOVE order for a DIV general will work. Issuing a STRATEGIC order to a DIV general will NOT work and this is persistent, regardless of the Courier order level.

Sidenote: I believe the CORPS leader should have the use roads order too.
At present time, he hasn't.

[GShock]

Long time I didn't update this thread... that's because i am more waiting for the new beta to be released than actually playing.

My observations for today include only fancy things that I think are missing in the game and, specifically, the generals' support staff. We now have 2 horses depicting the general's unit but I think this should be tripled at least with DIV leaders and much much more for CORPS and even more for ARMY commanders. This would effectively build a UNIT for the general where these sprites can die and even shoot. Not important if it bears no consequence (no real shooting or dying) but it does add to the immersion factor of the game to see horsemen around your supply wagons, aide de camp by your generals and so on. It justifies the couriers who now spawn out of nowhere.

Ahm wondering if anyone can confirm the problems mentioned with bde courier level AND the issue posted about DIV commanders not passing their strategic orders on. I would be really glad to be reassured on these 2 that they've been spotted and being worked on.

Finally, if I can be of any help with testing, all you need is to whistle.

[Little Powell]

GShock wrote:

Long time I didn't update this thread... that's because i am more waiting for the new beta to be released than actually playing.

My observations for today include only fancy things that I think are missing in the game and, specifically, the generals' support staff. We now have 2 horses depicting the general's unit but I think this should be tripled at least with DIV leaders and much much more for CORPS and even more for ARMY commanders. This would effectively build a UNIT for the general where these sprites can die and even shoot. Not important if it bears no consequence (no real shooting or dying) but it does add to the immersion factor of the game to see horsemen around your supply wagons, aide de camp by your generals and so on. It justifies the couriers who now spawn out of nowhere.

Ahm wondering if anyone can confirm the problems mentioned with bde courier level AND the issue posted about DIV commanders not passing their strategic orders on. I would be really glad to be reassured on these 2 that they've been spotted and being worked on.

Finally, if I can be of any help with testing, all you need is to whistle.

Let me make sure I have this correct. You are giving un-TC'd divisions orders destinations to area's of the map (via courier), and they aren't going there? This is something that was addressed shortly before the game came out. Units were ordered to move to a location, given a "Hold To The Last" order, but their orders destinations was staying where they originally started.

Let me ask you this; when you give them the order, if you move the map to where you ordered them, can you see the floating gold shield (their order destination)? If you can see it and they still aren't moving there, then yes that is a bug.. But if the floating shield is where they started, then they will always want to move there.

[GShock]

Let's clear the issue starting from the settings point of view: custom (to allow 20yd restricted camera because at 0yds you can't select your general) courier level - BDE.

The problem with the Arty was confirmed in the Arty tutorial. Not to mention that the arty efficiency (several tests with 0 casualties caused for the whole duration of battle with the exception of cannister rounds). I TCed the Arty leader and issued orders and neither he moved nor his guns. When switched to a higher courier level, problem was solved. Problem confirmed at the BDE courier level E X T E N D S to manual targeting (not working). I repeat the Arty leader would not move either as TCed or UnTCed with BDE courier level engaged. Normal behavior with higher courier level settings and this seemingly has nothing to do with strategic orders, it simply is impossible to move the strategic order marker, the AI will overrule it regardless of TC/UnTCed mode. The same goes with MOVE order at BDE courier level: not working.

As of the DIV leaders problem this is regardless of courier level: DIV leader takes the strategic order but does NOT pass on such order to his BDE generals so that the DIV leader moves to STRAT location and his troops and subordinate generals DON'T. This is only with STRAT orders, the move order issued to a DIV general works perfectly and I repeat this issue is NOT related to courier level. Problem confirmed in CORPS tutorial.